How does one become saved? [Archive]

Courtenay

February-29th-2008, 12:33 AM

In "Science and Health", the textbook of Christian Science, Mary Baker Eddy gives this definition of salvation:

"SALVATION. Life, Truth, and Love understood and demonstrated as supreme over all; sin, sickness, and death destroyed." (p. 594)

So, as a previous contributor mentioned, it really is a process, an ongoing spiritual journey, rather than a one-time event of "being saved" (and then you either are or you aren't - indeed, Mrs Eddy as a child strongly protested against the kind of theology that says that God would save some and condemn others).

When Life, Truth and Love are capitalised, by the way, they are names for God. So perhaps we could say that salvation is the ongoing process of understanding the supremacy of God, or good, over all, and demonstrating this in our own lives. (At the same time, as the definition indicates, this means the progressive wiping-out of everything that is unlike God - "sin, sickness, and death".) Christian Science teaches us how to do this!

I would say that yes, Christian Science is both a study and a practice - both an absolute and an applied science, if you like. It's something anyone can learn and do - it's universal. Which brings up your other question: "Do you accept all religions?". Christian Science (as someone else said) does differ from some other religious teachings. But we do accept that God is universal, and that all people are God's children, made in His/Her image and likeness. That's what all genuinely spiritual teachings are reaching out towards, what all people (whether they're aware of it or not) are yearning to know. It's something we're all learning - and God is guiding every one of us to it in a way we can understand.

If you're keen to know more, perhaps you'd like to read "Prayer", the first chapter of "Science and Health", for a start? It's very simple and straightforward - I know it answered so many of my own questions about what God is and what our relationship is to God. (The second chapter deals more directly with questions of salvation and atonement - what they mean and what Jesus' mission was.)

Happy exploring!

With love,
Courtenay :)

sparrowflies

March-14th-2008, 02:20 PM

For me, to be saved in CS is to awaken from a dream of separation from God to the realization that He is with man always and in all ways. And to understand that God is the only true Father and Mother and therefore, as His child , it is normal and natural for me to be well , decent and happy.

Starlight Rider

March-14th-2008, 07:23 PM

sparrowflies

March-14th-2008, 07:31 PM

Maybe its kind of a question of semantics-Maybe it really just about how to feel at peace with God, man, Life and the Universe.

Courtenay

March-14th-2008, 08:41 PM

I like the analogy I've sometimes heard - that salvation, or healing (the terms are actually synonymous in both Latin and ancient English!), is like a mother gently waking her child up from a bad dream. She doesn't have to get into the dream to save the child, or tell the child to run faster or fight the monster off or anything - she doesn't even have to know what the dream "is", so to speak. Just like the last two repliers have said, it's just awakening from that dream - not being "saved" from anything that was ever real or dangerous in the first place.

Courtenay ;)

livinglightly

March-14th-2008, 08:56 PM

I think about this idea of being "saved". Fairy tales, novels, even world events. There does seem to be a common theme of somebody needing to be saved from something.

I ask myself "what is it about this human experience that being saved (or being a savior) is repeated over and over. And what did Jesus' teaching bring to human consciousness to address those fears.

It's true that many people think that "being saved", in Christian theology, means finding God and being saved from eternal ****ation.

Mary Baker Eddy makes quite a few references to the word "saved". One that has helped to answer my yearning to understand this concept better is found in her book Science and Health with Key to the Scriptures.

"Reason is the most active human faculty. Let that inform the sentiments and awaken the man's dormant sense of moral obligation, and by degrees he will learn the nothingness of the pleasures of human sense and the grandeur and bliss of a spiritual sense, which silences the material or corporeal. Then he not only will be saved, but is saved."

For me this means that a spiritual understanding of God, which Jesus preached and lived, saves us from the illusion that our life, or our joy is in matter. So, ultimately, the answer to every human woe will be found in discovering our intimate and unstoppable relationship with God, as her spiritual creation. Already safe in the Kingdom of Heaven. Jesus found his safety in that relationship.

imjim

March-14th-2008, 09:17 PM

...how does a person become "saved"?

1+1=3
1+2=4
1+3=5

If I’ve mistakenly added 2 to something every time I intended to add a 1, then something in my thinking is distorted and I‘ve misstated the principle of math. Until I come to a point where I am able to acknowledge and admit that 1+1=2 instead of 1+1=3, I will remain within that mistake. What I need, is to be awakened to the truth - to have my thinking “born again“ to the fact of the proper solution. Without this awakening, I remain lost, and continue in my mistake.

Similarly:

At work one time, I had a big part with a hole in it that needed to be carefully dialed in and measured. There was a bolt right next to the hole that was used to tighten the part down after dialing it in. I dialed in the hole and tightened down the bolt only to have the part move out of tolerance. I did this over and over again with the same results.

This had happened before, but never like this. I stopped what I was doing, stepped back, and asked “What is it I need to learn here?” The thought came to use a different bolt for the initial tightening, then go back to the one normally used and tighten it. This worked and it helped in the future making part alignment easier.

Self-will, stubbornly doing things the way I had learned to do them, even though with inconsistent results, had changed - my thinking had been “born again” and with a tangible result. I also find that, as a result of this experience, I am more open to newer and perhaps better ways of doing things.

I find that when I can truly relinquish self-will, when I can take the time to listen to that still small voice within, that my experience is transformed, as well as my thinking, and I have that “born again” feeling.

Jim

Joel Belmont

March-14th-2008, 11:33 PM

I think there is a significant difference between the Christian Science view and the mainstream Christian view of Salvation, or of being "saved".

With most denominations of Christianity, being 'saved' is a quick, one-time process, that usually happens when someone is baptized (dunked in water) or when they 'confess their life to Christ'. The belief is that after you do this, you have a ticket to heaven (you are on the 'in' list) and you are free to kick back and hang around for the 'rapture' (when Christ is supposed to come back in the clouds and take people with him to heaven that have the golden ticket.

With Christian Science, salvation is a continual process. Mary Baker Eddy writes "Wisdom and Love may require many sacrifices of self to save us from sin. One sacrifice, however great, is insufficient to pay the debt of sin. The atonement requires constant self-immolation on the sinner's part."

When Jesus came to teach others, he didn't perform one miracle (nor did his disciples) and then wait around for heaven to come. They worked every day. Jesus was baptized, yet he didn't stop there... that was just the beginning, and he worked every day and in many places to continually demonstrate the power of God, the Father, and to do good works for others. He said that we must (Matt 10:8) "Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give." He didn't say 'confess yourself you me, and you'll be on the in-list for heaven. He gave us a significant example, and said "go, and do thou likewise".

One of the things I like about Christian Science is how demanding it is of each of us, in every hour. With many religions it is enough to go to church on sundays and pay 10% of your income. With Christian Science, it challenges us to always be good, and to do good. To be the samaritan that binds up the wounds, rather than the priest that passes by on the other side.

And in terms of a future coming, or rapture, that even the priests of his time demanded to know, Jesus said (luke 17:20-21) "The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you." Hence, if the Kingdom of Heaven is within each one of us, then we continually make our own heaven or hell, depending on if we are doing good, or evil; if we are are turning towards God, or away from Him.

I'll finish with these three quotes from Mrs. Eddy:

""Now," cried the apostle, "is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation,"--meaning, not that now men must prepare for a future-world salvation, or safety, but that now is the time in which to experience that salvation in spirit and in life."

"[Jesus'] consummate example was for the salvation of us all, but only through doing the works which he did and taught others to do."

"Universal salvation rests on progression and probation, and is unattainable without them. Heaven is not a locality, but a divine state of Mind in which all the manifestations of Mind are harmonious and immortal, because sin is not there and man is found having no righteousness of his own, but in possession of "the mind of the Lord," as the Scripture says."

Courtenay

March-15th-2008, 12:31 AM

I love your reply, Joel - that sums it up so well. Thanks! :)

Courtenay (I love how demanding it is too!) ;)

Mountain Climber

March-15th-2008, 02:41 PM

As Christian Scientists we do recognize the unique role Jesus played in our salvation. We "need Christ, and him crucified", we needed him to show us the way, to prove all that he claimed was true about God and man's relationship to God.

From Science and Health, the chapter on Atonement, by Mrs. Eddy:
"Meekly our Master met the mockery of his unrecog-
nized grandeur. Such indignities as he received, his fol-
3 lowers will endure until Christianity's last
triumph. He won eternal honors. He over-
came the world, the flesh, and all error, thus proving
6 their nothingness. He wrought a full salvation from sin,
sickness, and death. We need "Christ, and him cruci-
fied." We must have trials and self-denials, as well as
9 joys and victories, until all error is destroyed.
The educated belief that Soul is in the body causes
mortals to regard death as a friend, as a stepping-stone
12 out of mortality into immortality and bliss.
The Bible calls death an enemy, and Jesus
overcame death and the grave instead of yielding to them.
15 He was "the way."

Also, Mrs Eddy defined Christ as, "The divine manifestation of God, which comes to the flesh to destroy incarnate error." p583 of Science and Health

Russ

March-16th-2008, 08:53 PM

A previous poster questioned being saved from what. How about being saved from fear and limitation of all sort? Christian Science is all about Prayer and Healing. Jesus taught that we all can do what he did, and Mrs Eddy, the Discoverer and Founder of this movement, taught us how. There are some religions that believe if you don't accept Jesus as "your Personnel Savior", you will go to Hell. The feeling there being one of a vindictive God. We believe God to be loving towards all of His children, and the whole of humanity qualifies as being one of God's Children.

adyer

March-22nd-2008, 11:41 AM

Good answers so far. But as I see it, the question implies there is something to be saved from. If God is good, and created all, we're never in any real danger to begin with. I suppose true salvation is simply realizing this. (Not that it's easy!)
If I were having difficulty solving a math problem and my professor pointed out the error in my work, I could say the professor saved me from the problem. But what did he save me from? An error, which is a supposed opposite of the correct number or procedure or concept that already exists. So while error is actually nothing, we need to be saved from the suggestion that it is something.

chismith

April-10th-2008, 02:11 PM

ditto. Good answer!

Jael

April-11th-2008, 10:57 PM

Quoted from Joel:

I think there is a significant difference between the Christian Science view and the mainstream Christian view of Salvation, or of being "saved".

With most denominations of Christianity, being 'saved' is a quick, one-time process, that usually happens when someone is baptized (dunked in water) or when they 'confess their life to Christ'. The belief is that after you do this, you have a ticket to heaven (you are on the 'in' list) and you are free to kick back and hang around for the 'rapture' (when Christ is supposed to come back in the clouds and take people with him to heaven that have the golden ticket.

I find this thought to be condescending. CSers do not have a monopoly on understanding God, Christianity and finding salvation. As a Protestant, I don't believe for one moment that being baptized and accepting Christ as my savior is an instant ticket to heaven. My Christian friends don't believe this either. Nor do I feel free to kick back and wait for my golden ticket to heaven. Rather, I try to lead a Christian life by following the examples of Jesus Christ. I would say I walk the talk. I follow the golden rule, I reach out to my fellow human beings who are in need by offering my services to them, ie feeding the homeless and also praying for them. I pray....more than once a week at church. In fact, I do it daily. I study the bible and am well versed. Oh yea...and like CSers, I seek to work out my salvation with God. I know lots of mainstream Christians who have relationships with God and lead good Christian lives. They too will find their salvation.

Lastly, I firmly believe that people of other religions are also working out their salvation and they too will find it. I'm sure Abraham, Issac, Moses, David, etc. found their salvation and they weren't even Christians.

adyer

April-16th-2008, 12:50 AM

Jael,

Having grown up in the Baptist church I take a special interest in this:

I don't believe for one moment that being baptized and accepting Christ as my savior is an instant ticket to heaven.
I would be interested in some amplification of how you believe heaven is attained.

The orthodox view as I understand it is that when you accept Jesus as your Personal Savior you will then go to heaven when you die. That's the doctrine, unless something has changed. And it's why I left orthodox doctrine.

As a Christian Scientist I grew to understand that this doctrine would not exist were it not for the belief in matter...an ancient belief, at that. The premise is that the material body lives and dies, so there must be something in addition to it to account for the immortality of which Jesus spoke. Orthodox salvation is the acceptance of this something else, whereas Christian Science is the acknowledgment that there is only Spirit and its idea.

What appears to be matter is the objectification of human belief that error and Truth, matter and Spirit, can coexist.

So while Christian Scientists as students do not corner the market of spiritual understanding, there is a specific scientific teaching that explains the Bible and is the statement of Truth to our age. We find this teaching in Science and Health.

imjim

April-17th-2008, 02:20 PM

Lastly, I firmly believe that people of other religions are also working out their salvation and they too will find it. I'm sure Abraham, Issac, Moses, David, etc. found their salvation and they weren't even Christians.

I find Elijah to be one of the more interesting figures within the Bible. Elijah, healed the sick, raised the dead, and fed multitudes prophesying, by works, the coming of the immaculate Christ expressed in Jesus.

Elijah, was - as metaphorically explained - “taken up to heaven in a whirlwind” (2Kings 2:1). This distinct accomplishment makes him the only person recorded, thus far, to have the honor of not going through the experience we term death - “the last enemy to be destroyed“ (1Corinthians 15:26). His example shows that the proper understanding of God lifts us up in a manner similar to how Jesus was “lifted up” (John 12:32) and is possible in this present existence.

Elijah pops suddenly into Biblical history halfway through 1Kings and pops out just as quickly shortly into 2Kings. Despite little information recorded in Biblical history, his short career and example was important enough for Jesus to recall under the Greek name of Elias (Matthew 11:14). His example of transformation is pivotal to Christian history.

Mrs. Eddy found the Elias example important enough to include in her glossary:
ELIAS. Prophecy; spiritual evidence opposed to material sense; Christian Science, with which can be discerned the spiritual fact of whatever the material senses behold; the basis of immortality. (S&H 585:9)

Elias’ “at-one-ment” (S&H 21:1) with God, Infinite Mind, allowed him to prove the immortality of man. His discernment of the embodiments of the teaching which is today labeled “Christian Science” permitted him to go far beyond what the limited human sense of things presents as fact. He proved mans completeness and perfection in the all-ness of Mind - lifting himself, and others, up - beyond human limitation. All this, in a time ahead of and prophetically anticipating the arrival of Jesus more perfect demonstration of this Science of life.

I agree, the Christ, Immanuel, God with us, the Son of man, man in God’s image and likeness, all of which Jesus so amply expressed, is eternally with us and not limited to a sect, or people, or person. It is expressed, in varying degree, by all who seek the way to “work out our own salvation“ (Phil 2:12).

Jim

goodwinh

April-19th-2008, 01:54 PM

Paraphrasing a bit....

With Christian Science, we/I can discern the spiritual fact of whatever the material senses behold; the basis of immortality.

Great!
Thanks for sharing!

JLynnD

April-19th-2008, 09:58 PM

I have spent many years involved in Christian Bible studies and this is a tough questions to answer as a Christian Scientist -- largely because the person asking the question usually has a set perception of what being "saved" means and because they have often been taught that what we believe does not fit their criteria. Most of the time friends or acquaintances and I are able to dialogue respectfully -- and often lovingly -- and as I find out what their beliefs are I can then let them know that our Leader, Mary Baker Eddy, makes a clear statement about how Christian Scientists are saved. It also helps that as they get to know me they can see clearly that I truly practice Christian love based on ongoing prayer. I also have become very adept at steering conversation away from the doctrinal differences among religions by focusing on the way we live our lives as people of faith, who are genuinely devoted to loving God better, and that we strive to show this growing understanding of love by serving others.

The quote of Mrs. Eddy's I refered to earlier is actually the 4th Tenet - a foundational principle of our church. It says:

4. We acknowledge Jesus' atonement as the evi-
dence of divine, efficacious Love, unfolding man's unity
with God through Christ Jesus the Way-shower; and
we acknowledge that man is saved through Christ, through Truth, Life, and Love as demonstrated by the
Galilean Prophet in healing the sick and overcoming
sin and death.

It is good to notice that in this statement Mrs. Eddy includes Jesus' atonement (a reference to his humanness) - Christ Jesus the Way-shower (his unique position in history as the embodiment of God's never-severed link to his highest creation, man) - and then Christ as Truth, Life, and Love (the full understanding of God's creation as perfect, an understanding which can heal the ills of the world.) This statement can be found on page 497:13 of Science and Health by Mary Baker Eddy, the textbook of Christian Science.

I can then point out that my involvement in salvation is through yearning to prayerfully understand this process and live what I understand by serving others. It is an ongoing effort -- not a one-time commitment. Usually my friends are satisfied by and respect this explanation. If there is a concern about going to heaven, this statement of Mrs. Eddy's often helps me discuss that.

No final judgment awaits mortals, for the judgment-
day of wisdom comes hourly and continually,
even the judgment by which mortal man is di-
vested of all material error. As for spiritual error there
is none. (the margin note for this passage is "Day of judgement")
Science and Health p. 291:28

I hope this is as helpful to some of you as it has been for me. When someone asks me "Have you been saved?" I can respond with "I acknowledge that I am saved through Christ." Sometimes the conversation stops there, but if not, I have more to offer. If there is no willingness to find a point of commonality on the part of the other person, I just express to them a genuine gratitude that they have an understanding that supports them in their walk with God.

NancyJ

April-21st-2008, 09:02 AM

I keep hitting a wall.

In the Bible, Jesus states, 'whatever you ask in my name', etc....doesn't that show him to be more than the Way-Shower?
Also, Paul eludes to Jesus saving blood from time to time in the Bible, also, that we belong to Jesus.
Sometimes when I read the Bible, it seems like the Bible passages can be interpreted according to one's doctrine or beliefs.
This is NOT meant to be offensive, but has anyone ever thought Mrs, Eddy's writings were HER understanding of scriptures? Or, is it clearly understood she had divine revelation? Other religions claim divine revelation, and they clearly contradict each other.

:confused:

MikeDavis

April-21st-2008, 11:57 AM

I keep hitting a wall.

In the Bible, Jesus states, 'whatever you ask in my name', etc....doesn't that show him to be more than the Way-Shower?

Nancy,

Well, "Way-Shower" is only one term that Mrs. Eddy uses for Jesus. Using a concordance, you can also find other terms she uses for him, and she also at least at one point calls him "the way."

MikeDavis

April-21st-2008, 12:22 PM

Also, Paul eludes to Jesus saving blood from time to time in the Bible, also, that we belong to Jesus.

Nancy,

I believe that it is in accord with Christian Science to say that the blood of Jesus saves from sin. The issue is whether we are viewing his blood from a material sense of blood or from a spiritual sense. Mrs. Eddy rightly points out that the material blood of Jesus does not save. Evangelical or Fundamentalist Christians who believe that it does will have to explain what there is in the red and and white blood cells, hemoglobin, etc. that make up blood that gives it saving power. Obviously then, from a material standpoint, blood is blood, and we cannot identify any element in it that has the inherent power to save from sin. So even an Evangelical or Fundamentalist Christian will have to venture into some sort of metaphysical understanding of blood for his or her assertion that the blood of Jesus saves to make any sense.

Mrs. Eddy tells us that the "spiritual essence of blood is sacrifice." She also tells us that Jesus bore our sins in his body. As I see it, Jesus, who Mrs. Eddy indicates was humanly sinless, took on himself the sins of mankind (or, to put it in more metaphysical terms, all the errors of mortal belief). In the resurrection these errors were proved to be no part of man's spiritual identity. The shedding of his human blood on the cross, therefore, becomes a "type" (in line with the Jewish sacrifical system of atonement) of the intense sacrifice Jesus made on our behalf. It can be instructive to use a concordance to look up all of Mrs. Eddy's references to "blood."

As far as belonging to Jesus goes, I think it is important to remember that Mrs. Eddy makes a distinction between Jesus and the Christ, but not a separation. Christ, in her theology, is the eternal spiritual selfhood of Jesus -- perfect spiritual manhood and womanhood. Jesus was only on earth for a limited period of time. So, how can we "belong" to a human body/brain that hasn't been on earth for 2,000 years? However we do belong to his perfect spiritual identity, the Christ.

MikeDavis

April-21st-2008, 12:57 PM

Sometimes when I read the Bible, it seems like the Bible passages can be interpreted according to one's doctrine or beliefs.
This is NOT meant to be offensive, but has anyone ever thought Mrs, Eddy's writings were HER understanding of scriptures? Or, is it clearly understood she had divine revelation? Other religions claim divine revelation, and they clearly contradict each other.

Nancy,

I think it is a good thing to examine how we are viewing the Bible. Many mainstream Bible scholars today point out that there was a lot of theological variety in the early years of Christianity, with different groups of early Christians developing varying understandings of the significance of Jesus. Oral accounts of Jesus' life and actions eventually assumed various written forms, and eventually "gospels" were written about Jesus. One interesting thing about the gospels that have survived from that early period, both in the New Testament and outside of it, is that each one presents a somewhat different theology and metaphysics through which to understand Jesus. A good way to see that this is the case is to take just one gospel and to read it to try to determine who and what that gospel is saying Jesus was. But be sure to not read into that gospel any ideas about Jesus you may have gained from other gospels or any other source. For example, the writer of the gospel of John clearly views Jesus as the "logos" made flesh. What does that mean in the context of the gospel of John? Does the writer of the gospel of Matthew view Jesus as the "logos" made flesh? If one should find that he does not, then how does Matthew view Jesus?)

What I like about Christian Science in relation to this is that I believe Mrs. Eddy has given us a theological and metaphysical understanding of Jesus that can enable us to appreciate the differences in understanding Jesus that the early Christians had, but at the same time it transcends those differences. It is also truly scientific and enables Christians of today to come to grips with modern understandings of the world that have developed since the time of early Christianity.

It is true, as you say, that many sects and religions have claimed that their teachings are divine revelations from God, and these "revelations" definitely are not all compatible with each other. Personally, I have chosen to believe that Christian Science is a divine revelation from God to Mrs. Eddy. And everyone is free to make their own choices on that issue. Mrs. Eddy herself believed that Christian Science is divine revelation. But she also indicates that the idea of Christian Science being a divine revelation will stand or fall on whether or not the teachings of Christian Science are finally demonstrated to be completely true. It is more than just a matter of mere faith that Christian Science is a revelation.

NancyJ

April-22nd-2008, 08:17 AM

Mike, thank you so very much for your explanations. It has given me more to work with, and I appreciate your patience inbetween the lines, too.

One last question on this, I wonder why CS don't add the name of Jesus in their prayers? Jesus didn't add his name to the 'Our Father' but I've never heard his name mentioned during prayer. Has Mrs. Eddy addressed the part of scripture where Jesus stated 'whatever you ask in my name?' He mentioned to do that specifically.

THANKS!

MikeDavis

April-22nd-2008, 06:47 PM

One last question on this, I wonder why CS don't add the name of Jesus in their prayers? Jesus didn't add his name to the 'Our Father' but I've never heard his name mentioned during prayer. Has Mrs. Eddy addressed the part of scripture where Jesus stated 'whatever you ask in my name?' He mentioned to do that specifically.

Hi Nancy,

Something that comes to mind from Science and Health is on page 483 where Mrs. Eddy speaks of "...doing many wonderful works through the divine name and nature."

I see no reason why Christian Scientists shouldn't use the words, "in the name of Jesus" in their prayers if they feel led to do so. But what does it really mean to pray "in the name of Jesus"? The name of someone in the Bible, whether it is God or a human being, often is related to what is perceived to be the nature of that individual. And the essense of prayer in Christiain Science goes beyond the saying of words, either silently or out loud. In Christian Science, prayer takes us ultimately beyond words and human language to the point where we actually become conscious of the presence and power of God. From this standpoint, if we are really praying "in the name of Jesus," our prayers are partaking of and invoking the very nature of Christ. Christian Science teaches that Christ is the eternal spiritual selfhood of Jesus, and Mrs. Eddy defines Christ in the Glossary of Science and Health as "The divine manifestation of God which comes to the flesh to destroy incarnate error." Without Christ "coming to the flesh," healing cannot take place, and this saving, healing, reedeeming nature (or name) of Christ is what we invoke and become conscious of when we pray. Since the eternal Christ is inseparable from the identity of the historical figure, Jesus Christ, we are also praying in the name of Jesus.

kaila

September-30th-2008, 07:34 PM

JudyRae

October-1st-2008, 04:44 AM

Hi Kaila,

Welcome to cs.com! And thank you for "resurrecting" this thread! It was here before I joined and I found it very interesting to read through.

I notice that Joel Belmont never posted again. I can't speak for him, but it's a good indication of how careful we all need to be when we write. Had he said "some denominations of Christianity, being saved is a quick, one time process" that would have been entriely correct and should not have upset anyone. What a difference a word makes - hey!

I'm so glad though that it moved you to share your perspective with us, a perspective that we can all relate to!

Your post reminded me of these words of Paul's in Phillipians 2:

Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

And also of Mary Baker Eddy's in Science and Health with key to the Scriptures (p 138)

The supremacy of Spirit was the foundation on which Jesus built. His sublime summary points to the religion of Love.
Jesus established in the Christian era the precedent for all Christianity, theology, and healing. Christians are under as direct orders now, as they were then, to be Christlike, to possess the Christ-spirit, to follow the Christ-example, and to heal the sick as well as the sinning.

JudyRae

adyer

October-1st-2008, 10:15 AM

["most denomination of Christianity, being saved is a quick, one time process", etc.....
I would like to speak on behalf of the other "most denomination of Christianity", we do not believe that once saved, always saved, this is referred to as "full gospel", as the others are known as "light gospel". We believe that you must work at being Christ-like, everyday of your life. Yes we must accept Jesus Christ as our Savior because without this, we do not have that one way ticket to Heaven.

Thank you for adding to this discussion, but I still am a bit confused. On the one hand you say that "light gospel" does not teach "once saved, always saved" yet on the other you speak of a "one way ticket to Heaven." This suggests to me that accepting Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior is for some an on-again-off-again thing...that a profession of faith is no guarantee at all of going to Heaven.

In other words, if accepting Jesus Christ is your salvation -- but if once saved doesn't mean ALWAYS saved -- then the acceptance of Jesus is not necessarily a permanent thing. If this is a correct interpretation then it represents, to me, not so much separate kinds of doctrine but a spinoff doctrine. I grew up in a church that was in the Southern Baptist Convention, though I think a somewhat moderate church in that context. There's the old saying about the man who accepts Jesus and then afterward commits murder. As unfair as it seemed, I was never led to believe he is not still saved. In fact I was taught that there were levels of heaven and that one was not destined for as high a state of grace as another depending on what you do on earth. This was the first crack in my Protestant experience. I never accepted this belief.

I had heard of the concept of "backsliding" but only, IIRC, in the Methodist church...which I was not discouraged as regarding as very near or in fact over the border of heathenism. Is the concept of backsliding one in which one's salvation can actually be forfeited?

Andre Mincho

October-2nd-2008, 11:42 AM

Essential material in relationship to God becomes a criterion for differentiation between religions.
Monotheism - God is One (Christianity, Judaism, Islam).
Polytheism - the nature of God can be expressed in creation of various deities and relationship between them (Hinduism, Greek and Roman pagan religions).
Pantheism - God is all and in all.
Judaism - chosen people to bring God's message to the world, a nation of priests.
Islam - God is One, therefore there should be a uniform worship for all people of One God.
Christianity - Jesus represented the Messiah, Christ, the Son of God. A person must relate to Christ to be saved from the world and from himself. Salvation is in relationship to Jesus.
All religions relate (relegate) to God in a specific form and take specific material in God to relate to. Religion is based on a belief in existence of God and on Faith in His existence. Material of God taken by a religion contains truth about God, such as God is one, not many; in scenarios between many different deities the nature of God can be reflected, a nation may represent God, all people can worship One God, etc. All these truths might be combined and integrated from position of God as Divine Mind, separating a need for specific material of God to a concrete religious practice.
Christian Science is called Science, for it does not relate to God religiously, but directly manifests God. The crown achievement of Christian Science is discovering and establishing the nature of God as Infinite Divine Mind, Love and Spirit, one in God and in human. Divine Science is a stage higher in evolution than religion, for it relies upon proven knowledge and scientific principles, not just on belief or faith. We are not building a notion of God through different religious settings, but scientifically manifest God and are able to unite different material of God into one meaningful picture of mind, spirit, idea, life, human being and Christ.
We live in the Kingdom of God and do not need a salvation from It - only Its expansion here on earth through our presence, life and mission.
We do not live in the world from which we must be saved, for our position is determined not by the world, but by Divine Mind of God. We clearly differentiate material phenomena in their relative nature from Oneness of Spirit and Absolute of God.
We are not afraid of evil or antichrist, because in Allness of God evil is an illusion based on belief, which gets easily destroyed in One Mind and good nature of God.
We are not afraid of ourselves and our sinful nature that will bring us to hell, for we have found spiritual man - indestructible Image and Idea of God.
We do not reduce Christ to Jesus, for Christ is an Idea of God for all people and for the whole Creation. This Idea represents Oneness of the Father with the Son and spiritual nature of God (Holy Spirit). Christ for us is Infinite Divine Mind, which connects everything and everybody into expression of Idea about God. We do not have Jesus for a religion, but we take religion of Jesus for a Science.
We also differentiate Christian Science from practices of meditation and concentration, such as Yoga and Buddhism, since they do not directly relate to God, but satisfy material conditions of human being. They can be helpful tools, indirectly relating to truth about God, but in comparison with Christian Science, they are only substiutes and imitations of Divine Principles. We directly experience God and relate to Ultimate Reality.

Albert

October-6th-2008, 11:48 PM

Adyer,

"I grew up in a church that was in the Southern Baptist Convention, though I think a somewhat moderate church in that context. There's the old saying about the man who accepts Jesus and then afterward commits murder. As unfair as it seemed, I was never led to believe he is not still saved. In fact I was taught that there were levels of heaven and that one was not destined for as high a state of grace as another depending on what you do on earth. This was the first crack in my Protestant experience. I never accepted this belief."

I am a Baptist and have been one for more than a decade now. I am very familiar with the doctrine called "Once Saved Always Saved". I believe in it and am not ashamed to say so. It is important to understand what it does and does not mean.

First it does not mean that just because you say a prayer that you are automatically in. Any church that teaches such a doctrine is misleading its members and the Pastor is sure to be held accountable by God. God is not the provider of "Low cost Fire Insurance" but the creator and savior of ALL. To say that all you need to do is say a prayer in church one Sunday morning and you can go on living your life as it was is slap in the face of Christ Jesus who sacrificed himself for us.

When one does say a prayer on some Sunday morning or any where else that God leads someone to do so and if he/she truly means it then he/she is saved. If he/she truly meant that prayer you will see the person change from his/her way to Gods way. The evidence is in the fruit of his/her life. There will be a noticeable transformation in the life of the believer. Further this doctrine also helps the believer to find comfort and to understand that if he/she belongs to God no one can remove them from His hand. God knows the heart of every believer and will not let one who loves Him perish. Ezekiel 36 says:

24"For I will take you from the nations, gather you from all the lands and bring you into your own land.

25"Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols.

26"Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.

27"I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances.

28"You will live in the land that I gave to your forefathers; so you will be My people, and I will be your God.

A believer in God will want to keep his commandments not forsake them. Philippians 2:12-18 says

12Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed—not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence—continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, 13for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose.

14Do everything without complaining or arguing, 15so that you may become blameless and pure, children of God without fault in a crooked and depraved generation, in which you shine like stars in the universe 16as you hold out[c] the word of life—in order that I may boast on the day of Christ that I did not run or labor for nothing. 17But even if I am being poured out like a drink offering on the sacrifice and service coming from your faith, I am glad and rejoice with all of you. 18So you too should be glad and rejoice with me.

It is by grace we are saved as is made clear in Ephesians 2:8-10

8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast. 10For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

I hope this helps make orthodox salvation a little clearer.

May God Bless You,

Al

adyer

October-8th-2008, 01:39 AM

Thank you, Al, for your thoughtful reply.

Though you did not answer my question per se I think you have shed light on the core of the matter. What I am getting from it is that a truly saved person would not commit murder. Is that correct?

If it is, then I think I understand better what orthodox salvation is about. I still have a problem with a ticking clock salvation. In other words, death is considered in orthodox doctrine a "hard barrier" -- by which I mean one in which probation ends and judgment is passed. I see very little mercy in a doctrine that gives man only the opportunities in a material world in which chance or whatever cause can end life in disease, accident, or violent crime, thus rendering salvation preempted by things beyond that person's control. It seems capricious that God would allow ANYONE to suffer damnation.

Albert

October-8th-2008, 07:26 PM

Hi Adyer,

"Though you did not answer my question per se I think you have shed light on the core of the matter. What I am getting from it is that a truly saved person would not commit murder. Is that correct?

If it is, then I think I understand better what orthodox salvation is about. I still have a problem with a ticking clock salvation. In other words, death is considered in orthodox doctrine a "hard barrier" -- by which I mean one in which probation ends and judgment is passed. I see very little mercy in a doctrine that gives man only the opportunities in a material world in which chance or whatever cause can end life in disease, accident, or violent crime, thus rendering salvation preempted by things beyond that person's control. It seems capricious that God would allow ANYONE to suffer damnation."

I would say that if a person is truly in relationship to God he could not commit murder, its just not something a Christian can reconcile with scripture if he is being honest with himself and God.

The hard barrier problem is a challenge for many people. My friend and I were talking about Heaven and he told me that he did not believe there was a God but if there was a God that He would be allowed into Heaven because he is a good person. My friend lived in a very affluent neighborhood where he had a very nice home with many nice things in it. I lived in a very tough neighborhood where things were not so nice. There was a park about half a mile down the road where there were lots of drug dealers, thieves and bums. I suggested to my friend that he go to the park and find someone there that considered himself a "good" person and invite him to live in his home. My friend was shocked that I would suggest something like that, he told me that the person would steal his belongings, trash his house and not respect his rules.

I told him that he was probably right about all of it, but I asked him why God should do the same for him. My friend did not change his mind that day but he understood why God might not take him into Heaven. I personally think that it is less loving to make a person live with a God that he never wanted any part of than to allow the person to perish on his own terms.

May God Bless You,

Al