For people where English is a second language...

[Laurie]

For new people studying Christian Science where English is NOT their mother tongue
and there is no translated church services in their home language (like most of
Africa, in fact), is it acceptable to hold church services using a more modern
translation of the English Bible? I have often taken visitors to church who are not
native-English speakers and they have no idea what all the "thous" and "hasts"
mean.

[David]

I’m not in a position to say what’s acceptable, but I have heard that Readers in some branch churches have occasionally used a different Bible translation for the readings at Wednesday testimony meetings. There could be some problems using a different translation at Sunday services, since the Bible citations for the Lesson-Sermon are tied to the verses, words, and punctuation used in the King James Version of the Bible, and they wouldn’t necessarily be the same in some other English translation.

Maybe we’re missing the main point, however. This week’s Bible Lesson contains the account of the disciples on the Day of Pentecost, when, in the Bible’s words, “they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.” The result was that everyone in attendance understood what was being said. I’m certainly not going to suggest that Readers in Christian Science churches are suddenly going to start speaking in a variety of languages, but if the Readers and the other members of a church are alive with a palpable love of God and are living Christian Science day in and day out to the best of their ability, it’s likely that this spirit will be conveyed and have telling effects on everyone within hearing range, whether or not each person understands every word spoken. It’s a “language” anyone can grasp.

I remember the best Christian Science lecture I ever heard. Yes, it was in my language, but five minutes after it was over I don’t know that I could tell you anything that was said. But the feeling this lecture created in me . . . that was phenomenal, and it let me know what Christian Science is all about. And it’s this feeling, which is repeated whenever I’m in sync with God or whenever I’m with someone who is, that lets me know Christian Science is true and that keeps me going. It’s the touch of the Christ that heals.

[Laurie]

David, I agree completely with your comments about this week's Bible Lesson.

My comments were more about making church services more "accessible" to people.
Catering for non-native English speakers is sort of on the same human level as putting
a ramp beside the stairs at your church to allow people in wheelchairs to visit church also.

But thanks for your comments, I will think of that in more depth when I invite another
person to church with me.

[UserX]

Laurie,

Im wondering if there might be a way to discuss or read through the lesson with your friend a before going to the service, or even bring a marked newer translation to the service for them to read along with. I don't think there are any "rules" against that :-) and people often read along with a full-text copy of the lesson here (in the US). I think the important thing is that they have what they feel they need to connect with what is being read.

Here's an experience I had:

I had just arrived in Stockholm, Sweden from the USA the day before the attack on the World Trade Center. By the time Wednesday came around, I was feeling a pretty heavy burden of anxiety and sadness being alone and so far away from friends and family and uncertain of when or how I'd get home.

I went to the Wednesday evening testimony meeting in need of some comfort and inspiration. Of course, I didn't understand a word of it since it was in Swedish. But as I sat there I felt more peace, love, and safety with every moment and I realized in the prayers and inspired thoughts of those around me, and my own, there was no language barrier. The Truth was true and active regardless of any language and it was having a quieting and comforting effect.

Now here's the practical part:

After the service the first reader, upon learning that I was from the USA and did not understand Swedish, copied all the citations down so I could take them with me and study them that night, which was a very loving thing to do.

The reason I was in Sweden was for a friend's wedding. Unfortunately, due to the attacks, his entire family was unable to attend and he asked me to take over doing the readings. It turned out that some of the citations from the Wednesday meeting were perfect for the wedding. To me this was further proof of the unstoppable effect of Truth or God meeting the human need.

[Laurie]

Your ideas are very good and appropriate in cases where people are familiar with format of the Christian Science church service. And, like you in Sweden, I have gone to CS church services where I did not understand the language and I still enjoyed it. But I was familiar with what was happening in the service and had read the Bible lesson previously that week, etc. I was not a new comer to CS.

I find it a bit uncomfortable to invite new people to church for the first time who speak excellent modern English but not the "King's English" and have them tell me afterwards that they really couldn't understand the Bible readings.

[Starlight Rider]

I really like the KJV's poetic style, but as a practical matter I have often wondered if CS churches can rely on it indefinitely. I think the question should be asked whether 17th century English is really the best way to communicate to 21st century listeners. From what I understand, Mrs. Eddy did not lock in the KJV Bible as the only translation for all time. Perhaps the time is coming to consider using a more modern translation as the basis for the lessons. A phase-in period might offer citation markings in both translations so each church or individual reader could choose which to use until they can make the complete conversion.

[jamshep]

Your ideas are very good and appropriate in cases where people are familiar with format of the Christian Science church service. And, like you in Sweden, I have gone to CS church services where I did not understand the language and I still enjoyed it. But I was familiar with what was happening in the service and had read the Bible lesson previously that week, etc. I was not a new comer to CS.

I find it a bit uncomfortable to invite new people to church for the first time who speak excellent modern English but not the "King's English" and have them tell me afterwards that they really couldn't understand the Bible readings.

Its not easy for me to invite people to church for the first time. I recognize there often seems to be a resistance to good, so I try to fight against that resistance that tries to come into my thought. And I try to remember that every single service has a wonderfully healing message that speaks to each attendee and brings healing.

I find it much easier to invite new people to the Wed eve meeting than the Sun services because they seem less formal and less, well...rigid.

I think we can do lots to make the services/meetings more user friendly. Reading from the KJV is only part of the issue. [Eg readers sometimes say 'i shall now read from...'. Who ever says shall anymore?] I think that as I work and pray to really love my church, its services, the attendees, and the community, I will find myself more comfortable with our services--and find individual and unique ways of making newcomers feel that way too.

[Laurie]

I think we can do lots to make the services/meetings more user friendly.

And Jesus was always willing to put aside tradition in order to make religious services more user friendly. He took part in traditional services by reading. And he made them more user friendly by healing people.

[Courtenay]

Hi everyone,

The main reason why we use the KJV in our services in English, as far as I know, isn't "tradition" - it's because it's what Mary Baker Eddy used nearly every time she quoted the Bible in Science and Health, and it's echoed throughout her writings in her own style. A different translation simply wouldn't match.

I understand the difficulty - it's a good idea to be familiar with other translations too, as they provide many fresh insights into the Bible texts. (Many writers in the CS magazines quote from newer translations when appropriate.) We certainly shouldn't pretend that the KJV is the only "right" translation. But there are very good historical reasons for using it too. The KJV was written at a time of huge religious strife in England between different factions of Christianity, in the years after Protestantism took root there. There were various English Bibles in use at the time, many of them translated with a deliberate theological bias. King James I (previously King of Scotland) wanted to have one Bible translation that ALL people could agree on. So when he commissioned his translation, he made sure that the scholars involved (over 50 of them, which is apparently the largest number ever for an English Bible translation) came from a wide range of backgrounds - high church, low church, and moderate - in order to include the greatest spectrum of theological views.

That's telling it very briefly, but the result was that the KJV preserves a lot of the richness and depth (and sometimes ambiguity) of meaning that is in the original Hebrew and Greek texts. This in turn gives us the widest and deepest scope for perceiving the spiritual sense of the Scriptures. Sometimes more modern translations (especially those by one person), while useful for clarification, have a much narrower theological bias. It's helpful to compare different ones while studying, but as that's not practical in a church service, the KJV really is the best we have in English. (I believe when choosing Bibles in other languages for S&H translations and church services, the Christian Science Publishing Society looks for the Bible in that language that is closest in spirit to the KJV.)

If you'd like to read further, a couple of books I've found interesting and helpful are "God's Secretaries: The Making of the King James Bible" by Adam Nicolson, and the sections on the KJV in "The Reforming Power of the Scriptures" by Mary Metzner Trammell and William G. Dawley.

When you have friends (especially with English as a second language) who have trouble with the KJV English, why not offer them a full-text printout of that week's Lesson from mybiblelesson.com? This is the version for young (and young-thinking) people, which includes lots of special features - particularly definitions of harder words and alternative translations of difficult Bible passages. It clarifies the Lesson so much and gives many new ideas on how to use it in your own life - and it's heaps of fun! :D

Happy reading,
Courtenay (undergraduate Bible scholar ;) )

[Laurie]

but sheare watch our for copyright infringement. Your subscription to my bible lesson is for immediate family only. you should buy a one off copy for your frien

[NYCtown]

Hi everyone,

The main reason why we use the KJV in our services in English, as far as I know, isn't "tradition" - it's because it's what Mary Baker Eddy used nearly every time she quoted the Bible in Science and Health, and it's echoed throughout her writings in her own style. A different translation simply wouldn't match.

I understand the difficulty - it's a good idea to be familiar with other translations too, as they provide many fresh insights into the Bible texts. (Many writers in the CS magazines quote from newer translations when appropriate.) We certainly shouldn't pretend that the KJV is the only "right" translation. But there are very good historical reasons for using it too. The KJV was written at a time of huge religious strife in England between different factions of Christianity, in the years after Protestantism took root there. There were various English Bibles in use at the time, many of them translated with a deliberate theological bias. King James I (previously King of Scotland) wanted to have one Bible translation that ALL people could agree on. So when he commissioned his translation, he made sure that the scholars involved (over 50 of them, which is apparently the largest number ever for an English Bible translation) came from a wide range of backgrounds - high church, low church, and moderate - in order to include the greatest spectrum of theological views.

That's telling it very briefly, but the result was that the KJV preserves a lot of the richness and depth (and sometimes ambiguity) of meaning that is in the original Hebrew and Greek texts. This in turn gives us the widest and deepest scope for perceiving the spiritual sense of the Scriptures. Sometimes more modern translations (especially those by one person), while useful for clarification, have a much narrower theological bias. It's helpful to compare different ones while studying, but as that's not practical in a church service, the KJV really is the best we have in English. (I believe when choosing Bibles in other languages for S&H translations and church services, the Christian Science Publishing Society looks for the Bible in that language that is closest in spirit to the KJV.)

If you'd like to read further, a couple of books I've found interesting and helpful are "God's Secretaries: The Making of the King James Bible" by Adam Nicolson, and the sections on the KJV in "The Reforming Power of the Scriptures" by Mary Metzner Trammell and William G. Dawley.

When you have friends (especially with English as a second language) who have trouble with the KJV English, why not offer them a full-text printout of that week's Lesson from mybiblelesson.com? This is the version for young (and young-thinking) people, which includes lots of special features - particularly definitions of harder words and alternative translations of difficult Bible passages. It clarifies the Lesson so much and gives many new ideas on how to use it in your own life - and it's heaps of fun! :D

Happy reading,
Courtenay (undergraduate Bible scholar ;) )
I've actually heard from a Bible scholar who I trust that the KJV has quite a few translation mistakes in it from the original Hebrew. I probably won't learn Hebrew, but as a trained translator/interpreter, I know how much even a nuance error can affect the text and I'd like to get as close to the original as possible.

There's a thread at tmcyouth.com about church services and in it one of the Mary Baker Eddy Library researchers said this:

1. Mrs. Eddy never issued any directive that the Lesson Sermons have to use the King James Version, and in her time and for a few years after, the Lesson Sermons occasionally used the Revised Version for the Golden Text and Responsive Reading instead of the King James Version.

2. Mrs. Eddy also gave no directives on what Bible to use for the Lessons in languages other than English.

You can find the whole thread here:
http://www.tmcyouth.com/forums/showthread.php?p=8051#post8051

[Laurie]

I've actually heard from a Bible scholar who I trust that the KJV has quite a few translation mistakes in it from the original Hebrew. I probably won't learn Hebrew, but as a trained translator/interpreter, I know how much even a nuance error can affect the text and I'd like to get as close to the original as possible.


I like this subthread. From books I have read (in English, of course), the prophecy of the Messiah is that he would be born of a young maiden, or unmarried girl - not necessarily a virgin. The "virgin" part was as translation error.

[NYCtown]

I'm not slamming the KJV -- I love it and have been blessed by it many times over -- I just think we need to watch out for the train of thought that says it's the only way to get inspiration from the Bible. MBE read a lot of different translations and she used a few (not many others than the KJV, though) in S&H.

[Russ]

Your ideas are very good and appropriate in cases where people are familiar with format of the Christian Science church service. And, like you in Sweden, I have gone to CS church services where I did not understand the language and I still enjoyed it. But I was familiar with what was happening in the service and had read the Bible lesson previously that week, etc. I was not a new comer to CS.

I find it a bit uncomfortable to invite new people to church for the first time who speak excellent modern English but not the "King's English" and have them tell me afterwards that they really couldn't understand the Bible readings.

The Bible Readings are Beautiful. Much like the prose and poetry of William Shakespeare, the KJV of the Bible shows us a world we can only imagine. Mrs. Eddy shows us the meaning, and the Lesson combines the two. Don't be uncomfortable about inviting "new people" to Church. If they don't completely understand the "King's English", you can use this as a way to introduce them to the wonders of Christian Science Healing.

[Courtenay]

It's true - the KJV is not the "only" inspired translation or the "only" one we ought to read. Many of us probably have several translations that we check against each other when studying a passage - I enjoy doing that.

It's also true that there are occasional mistakes in the KJV's translation of the Hebrew. Most of these, as far as I'm aware, are on words that are very rarely used in the Hebrew texts and so the translators weren't sure what they meant. In some cases, scholars today still aren't sure what they mean!! Also, because Hebrew was originally written without vowels, the meaning of a word can sometimes be changed by adding different vowels - or the word itself may have several possible meanings (another continuing debate; one advantage of many modern translations is that they often have footnotes with alternative readings, but that's more useful for study than for actual reading in church). As far as I know, most words and passages that are debatable don't have a great impact on the overall meaning of the texts.

Laurie, you brought up the issue of whether the original text specified the Messiah being born of a "virgin" or not. The Hebrew word used in Isaiah 7:14, almah, does basically mean "young woman" or "maiden" - possibly a virgin, but not necessarily. (At least one modern Jewish scholar has written that it always refers to a young woman of undoubted virtue, which in ancient times would be taken to mean a virgin - see David Stern's The Jewish New Testament).

It's interesting to note, though, that when Jewish scholars translated the Hebrew Scriptures into Greek, about 250 years before Jesus' time, they used the word parthenos for Isa. 7:14. This word DOES refer specifically to a virgin (hence the Parthenon in Athens, dedicated to the virgin goddess Athena). This Greek version of the Old Testament (the Septuagint) is what Matthew and Luke quote in their references to Jesus' birth. So the idea that Isaiah wrote "a virgin shall conceive" was sanctioned by Jewish translators long before anyone had the notion that it would apply literally to one Jesus of Nazareth.

[pattyp]

I am a member of the Christian Science Society in Seoul, South Korea where the regular Sunday services in English are actually bi-lingual. That is, the Science and Health passages are read in English, while the Bible passages are read from the Korean KJV Bible. Announcements, the Lord’s Prayer, and other regular elements of the service are presented in both English and Korean, and there are two solos, one in each language.

Once a month, there is an additional service in Korean. The hymns and passages in Science and Health are translated into Korean by two of the native-speaking members. And over a period of many years, these monthly translations have grown to embrace about 2/3 of Science and Health. Although both the original and modern versions of the KJV Bible are available in Korean, it is the original translation that is used for the church services.

Hopefully, we will soon be able to compile full-text Bible Lessons in Korean for study by those who do not speak English. But given the complexities of translating English into Korean in the first place, and the ideas of Science and Health in particular, the KJV’s thees and thous are not apt to be much additional cause for dismay.

It just seems to me that if we take what we already have and adapt it to the current situation to the best of our ability – as the Seoul Society is doing – then the way will naturally open for us to share Christian Science ever more meaningfully with those who do not speak English.

[Laurie]

I am a member of the Christian Science Society in Seoul....

I think Christian Science SOCIETIES have a slight advantage over Christian Science CHURCHES in that they aren't quite as regimented on what happens on Sundays and Wednesdays ;)

[Courtenay]

I think Christian Science SOCIETIES have a slight advantage over Christian Science CHURCHES in that they aren't quite as regimented on what happens on Sundays and Wednesdays ;)

Hi again everyone,

I don't have a Journal on me at this moment (so can't check the directory), but I'm sure that plenty of branch churches in non-English-speaking countries have either bilingual services, or separate ones in the two languages - whatever best meets the needs of the congregation. I was talking to a friend this morning who lived in Japan for a year and was a member of First Church in Tokyo, which had both English and Japanese speakers in the congregation. I didn't ask how they did their services, but on Wednesdays, when someone gave a testimony in English, another member would translate it into Japanese, and vice versa. What I mean is, there really aren't that many restrictions on what branch churches (as opposed to societies) do either - the Order of Services in the Manual doesn't specify anything about which language(s) to use and when! :)

By the way, I found a very helpful article on this topic in the June 2005 Journal - "Christian Science Bible Lessons and the King James Version". I've just checked, and it's also available at www.spirituality.com (type "King James Version" into the search box).

[goodwinh]

Hi again everyone,

.....

By the way, I found a very helpful article on this topic in the June 2005 Journal - "Christian Science Bible Lessons and the King James Version". I've just checked, and it's also available at www.spirituality.com (type "King James Version" into the search box).

Courtenay,

Thanks for that reference ... Was very interesting ...