mesmerism

[NancyJ]

As a nurse, if a patient was complaining that people were thinking bad thoughts of them, and directing evil things to happen to them through thoughts, I would call a doctor because it is paranoia.
MBE, even in her last years, seemed to really suffer from this.
Do CS believe in mesmerism? They are warned not to practice it, but when I'm sitting in a service and look around at the congregants, am I to think they believe in it?

[adyer]

Nancy,

It always helps me to refer to the chapter "Animal Magnetism Unmasked" from Science and Health.

It's not so much believing in mesmerism as it is recognizing mesmerism for what it is. If I replace mesmerism with the word dream, and then ask what do I do about a dream?, the answer is always, wake up! Right?

But I must first recognize the error to be overcome. I cannot wake up if I do not first acknowledge that I am dreaming. This does not make the dream real; it demonstrates its unreality because I can awaken from it.

So mesmerism is the belief in other minds. It is necessary to point out the error of this belief, but the error has no power.

Elsewhere I told a story of driving the wrong direction. There could be no arrival at my destination, only the belief that I could arrive at my destination by driving the wrong way. But without unmasking this belief I could not correct my course.

It also helps me, Nancy, not to judge Christian Science by Christian Scientists. We are not a homogeneous group. We're not all at the same point of progress. A study of Science and Health will reveal that mesmerism is error, nothing.

[imjim]

As a nurse, if a patient was complaining that people were thinking bad thoughts of them, and directing evil things to happen to them through thoughts, I would call a doctor because it is paranoia.
MBE, even in her last years, seemed to really suffer from this.

“There is no life, truth, intelligence, nor substance in matter.” (S&H 468:9)

This sentence alone is enough to cause most of today’s worldly thinkers to consider “calling a doctor” suspecting mental deficiency. I’m sure too that, were he walking the earth today, Jesus statement, “if a man keep my saying, he shall never see death” would be considered just as insane. Just because the majority of thinking points to a certain conclusion, doesn’t mean it is so.

MBE’s life and example had an arm that reached much farther than my own. Her healing ability, demonstrated over and over, consistently shows that she had an understanding far greater than the average. Her ability, as recorded many times, to say what someone was thinking - before they verbalized it - or to perceive mentally a difficulty someone was experiencing and to heal that difficulty, shows me that she had an uncommon spiritual astuteness and awareness. I would have to say the same about Jesus life, teachings, and works also - “who touched me?” (Luke 8:45) - "Come, see a man, which told me all things that ever I did:" (John 4:29)

I would be remiss to dismiss lightly anything MBE said concerning any particular spiritual concept. Yet, she also counsels us, “. . . and follow your leader only so far as she follows Christ.” (Message to Mother Church ‘01 34:25) My right to conscience must lead me.


Do CS believe in mesmerism? They are warned not to practice it, but when I'm sitting in a service and look around at the congregants, am I to think they believe in it?

As far as what others in a congregation may or may not believe, or may or may not be thinking, I have no idea. My part is to deal, to the best of my ability, with any falsehoods presented about God’s man that I perceive - no matter what they are labeled.

Hope this helps,

Jim

[monntba]

Christian Science unequivocally and preeminently denies the existence or reality of mesmerism. In Science, divine Mind alone exists. There is no lesser mental power. In belief, there are many forms of mesmerism going on. A Christian Scientist is awake to these erroneous thought-forces and neutralizes then with the understanding of their unreality. Does this help, Nancy?

[NancyJ]

From various sources, I've learned that Mrs. Eddy had people devote 2 hours at a time at her residence to counteract mesmerism, or bad thoughts, directed at her.
It seems to me there's no question she really felt 'spooked' by it, esp. from people who she knew might be using it and were very angry with her.
(unless I've misunderstood).
Did she ask people to help her destroy it, to increase the possibility of doing so?
In CS she clearly didn't want others to practice animal magnetism (send evil thoughts, etc) to others, but she seemed to obsess on the probability it was being done to her. That's my opinion, could be wrong.

[NYCtown]

I have never gotten the impression that she was spooked by mesmerism. I think she just recognized that it was something that needed to be dealt with. It's like disease...devoting time in prayer to heal doesn't mean you're afraid of the condition, it means you see the need to counteract widespread human beliefs with more enlightened thought. Make sense?

[MikeDavis]

From various sources, I've learned that Mrs. Eddy had people devote 2 hours at a time at her residence to counteract mesmerism, or bad thoughts, directed at her.
It seems to me there's no question she really felt 'spooked' by it, esp. from people who she knew might be using it and were very angry with her.
(unless I've misunderstood).
Did she ask people to help her destroy it, to increase the possibility of doing so?
In CS she clearly didn't want others to practice animal magnetism (send evil thoughts, etc) to others, but she seemed to obsess on the probability it was being done to her. That's my opinion, could be wrong.

Nancy,

Let's say you lived in a "bad neighborhood" and you had valuable items in your house and burglars continually were trying to find ways to break in to steal your belongings. If you, over time, took vigorous steps to keep the burglars out and gave significant thought to the best ways of doing this, would it be fair to say that you were "obsessed" with burglars trying to get in, or that you were "paranoid" about it? Rather than use such terms, wouldn't it be better to say that you were realistically assessing the situation you were in and taking practical steps to safeguard your home?

One of Mrs. Eddy's teachings about human experience is that it is in essence wholly mental in nature. This is not always readily apparent because of what Mrs. Eddy teaches about mortal mind objectifying itself as matter and then believing that it (mortal mind) is in matter. But some individuals have a much more vivid sense of the mental nature of human experience and the apparent causative power of thoughts and mental states than do others. Mrs. Eddy was extremely sensitive to the mental environment in which she lived. If her thought was not spiritually elevated enough that she was conscious of God as infinite Love in which there could be no evil thoughts or mesmerism, she could be affected physically by such mortal thoughts. And there is plenty of evidence that some individuals in her time actually practiced trying to harm others by using the power of mortal thought. This is not something we just have to take Mrs. Eddy's word for. And Mrs. Eddy also had to deal with the general resistance of mortal mind directed against Christian Science and against her as its Discoverer and Founder. So she had members of her household who were experienced Christian Science practitioners help with this work of prayerfully safeguarding the mental environment of her home and helping with the work of keeping their and her thought uplifted spiritually so that they were consciously dwelling in that infinite realm of God's love in which evil thoughts or mesmerism could not exist or have any power. It seems to me to be grossly unfair to think of what Mrs. Eddy did to deal practically with this situation as being an example of "obsession" or "paranoia."

To get a balanced perspective on this I'd recommned reading a couple of modern scholarly biographies about Mrs. Eddy -- the three volume biography by Robert Peel, as well as a biography by Stephen Gottschalk titled Rolling Away the Stone. It is also true that as Mrs. Eddy herself grew spiritually over the years she came more and more to view mesmerism and mental malpractice as powerless impersonal error and to never attach it to persons.

There is also an excellent scholarly book on the history of mesmerism and what people did in practicing it that I'd also recommend. It is by Adam Crabtree, and is titled From Mesmer to Freud: Magnetic Sleep and the Roots of Psychological Healing (published by Yale University Press). This book gives some valuable broader context to Mrs. Eddy's teaching about mesmerism.

[NancyJ]

I just think there is a difference between being overly cautious and paranoid, but sometimes people will label the former the latter.
I will read the suggested literature, although I've skimmed through biographies by authors who clearly love MBE and all that she was, and those who felt otherwise.
I still think there was a heavy influence of what she perceived as MAM, and she blames that for the death of her husband.
I have been called paranoid, or overly cautious certain times in my life, for example before going on vacation I don't like my family to be loud that we are leaving, and not all walk out carrying suitcases at the same time...things that might tell others we will be away, and fear of vandalism. But, I have never thought illnesses in my family, or to myself, were sent by others.
This probably strikes an offensive chord with some CS, because people who love their church are going to defend MBE, I've been around long enough to know that in any denomination....but she really devoted a lot of her time and energy (from what I can see) trying to do good but also thinking others were sending her illness, even the death of her husband.
I find it strange, and that's why I brought it up, and that's where I am with it.
I think she was obsessed with it, albeit she was trying to turn to God about it,and show others how to.

[Merry1]

You know, paranoia is defined as an irrational fear or distrust of others and obsession as a fixation on an unreasonable idea or emotion. I think it seems like paranoia and obsession to you (and probably to many other non-scientists) because it is commonly accepted that causes of disease, injury, and discord of most other kinds are physical, not mental. If you assume that this is so, then someone who talks a lot about the causes being mental must seem irrational or unreasonable. We Christian Scientists have found that problems that seem to have physical causes really are the result of mental beliefs, however, and that we have to be mentally alert not to be sucked into accepting the commonly held views if we want to maintain our freedom from the problems that stem from those beliefs. Our experience shows us that Mrs. Eddy’s concern was not irrational or unreasonable. That's why, even though there were times when she wrote and talked about it a lot, her focus on the problem of mesmerism does not seem like paranoia or obsession to us.

[NancyJ]

I agree, the words paranoia and obsession are used by society many times not in true context, and too easily.

I also apologize for bringing it up in regard to her on the board, but I have always felt it's better to bring forward a question, so insight can be obtained, and also to move on.

I'm not dwelling on it, but it is something (from what I've learned over time) that did occur, (but less than the above words to some degree) she felt she was under attack mentally. If I'm wrong, I'll be the first to say so, but I also think if a defensive wall is going up to protect, then the learning ceases.

Consideration has to be made while reading pro, con, or in the middle biographies, and then a general consensus forms. I've been reading in the 'middle' material. I really don't want to read the 'con' as their agenda is pretty clear, so I'll pick up a few that CS suggest.

Take care, thank you, I'll be off the boards for sometime.
Nancy

[NYCtown]

Hi Nancy --

I think you've used the forums as they were designed to be used! And you're probably not the only one wondering about this issue, either.

Have to say, too, that when I read what you wrote above, that "she felt she was under attack mentally," it made me realize how important it is for each of us to see that we are, too--and then do something about it. Not in a scary, creepy way...and maybe no one particular person is actively mentally working against us, but all of us are bombarded with messages that we either accept or reject. And our lives are shaped by those messages depending on our response to them.

Christian Scientists aren't alone in understanding this. I was flipping through the tv channels last night and I paused on a movie about teen pregnancy. And the part I saw talked about how the fashion industry and the way girls are influenced about how it's desirable to be perceived sexually even at a very young age leads to sex (often doing things that aren't at all comfortable for the kids) and then teen pregnancy results. Aren't they saying that girls are being attacked mentally to some degree? That they're going along with other people's ideas without thinking and then they pay a price? It's definitely something to think about.

[NYCtown]

I was reading the book of Matthew and in chapter 24 I think Jesus is talking about being aware of the mental atmosphere and the signs of the times. It hit me that I don't think anyone thinks he was paranoid. Do they?

[NancyJ]

And I've been thinking, 'judge not lest ye be judged.' The past few days, I've been thinking about my life, things I've said and done, and although I'm not a leader of a religion, I'm a Mom, wife, sister, friend, etc....people could write something about me which might seem extreme. The reason? Possibly because they didn't fully understand the situation, weren't there at the time, etc....gave their opinion based on bias, saw it with different eyes, heard with different ears, etc...etc....and downright disagreed. And then wrote books about it.
Peace and Love,
Nancy

[NYCtown]

And I've been thinking, 'judge not lest ye be judged.' The past few days, I've been thinking about my life, things I've said and done, and although I'm not a leader of a religion, I'm a Mom, wife, sister, friend, etc....people could write something about me which might seem extreme. The reason? Possibly because they didn't fully understand the situation, weren't there at the time, etc....gave their opinion based on bias, saw it with different eyes, heard with different ears, etc...etc....and downright disagreed. And then wrote books about it.
Peace and Love,
Nancy
Good point, Nancy!

[LoraHoward]

I think MikeDavis had some really good things to say about Mrs. Eddy and mesmerism.
He brought out that CS deals with mental issues, and mesmerism is mental influence, which we run into every day.

The old-fashioned term for mesmerism was Animal Magnetism.
Edward Kimball said that it was not a problem--it was the whole problem. And really, that is the case.
AM is what makes us think we are minds in matter, separate from God, subject to disease, sin, death, conflict. AM is what gives us this wonderful material world.
Otherwise, it would be obvious that God and Man were one inseparable being.

All that is happening in CS healing is reversal, therefore obliteration, of AM.When mesmerism is gone, there is only God.

In our everyday lives
, any and all advertising is designed to influence(AM). Gossip, insistence on bad weather, bad health, which one hears in most conversations, is mesmerism. We have all been around grumpy people, depressed people, disapproving people, and, whether they say anything out loud or not, we get affected,"catch" their mood. Mesmerism.

It is not mysterious. It is simply the terms used for describing the various influences we run into, which cause sin, disease and death. So, rather than being paranoid, if you want to heal in CS, AM is necessary to consider.

If you don't understand internet scams fraudulently trying to take your money, you can get taken advantage of. Similarly, if you don't understand the various mental influences around, like fear of the flu for example, you can be influenced.

Mrs. Eddy had alot going on. She was famous and controvertial. Ive thought of it this way--nearly every person in the supermarket line reads those papers on display and says,"Just how many kids does Angelina Jolie have now!" Or something. I don't want that many people gossiping about me. Just getting through High School was bad enough!
Mrs. Eddy taught others to heal mentally, and some did indeed go over to the Dark Side and use mental means to harm, as is done in voodoo and Black witchcraft. And, yeah, we are told all of that is not real, but also, we have to prove it, and I think Mrs. Eddy needed helpers to counteract those trying to harm her or at least cloud her thought. She had others doing that work because she was teaching them and it was good practice for them, and, because she had other things to do herself.

Anyway, thanks for this thread Nancy. I would be interested in what anyone else has to say on this topic in general.

--Lora

[Jael]

In our everyday lives
, any and all advertising is designed to influence(AM). Gossip, insistence on bad weather, bad health, which one hears in most conversations, is mesmerism. We have all been around grumpy people, depressed people, disapproving people, and, whether they say anything out loud or not, we get affected,"catch" their mood.
--Lora

I read this with great interest. I don't believe in Malicious Animal Magnetism. It's simply an excuse to try to explain why people make choices...good or bad. So for example, I disagree that people "catch" other peoples mood. This is only true if you give up power to others. As humans, we have the choice to be happy, sad, mad, etc. It's all about our choices. Whenever my husband or daughter accusses me of making them mad, I typically tell them that I don't have that kind of power. It's their choice to be mad. The same is true with all the other influences out there, gossip, the need to be thin, beautiful, etc.

Yes, we are bombarded with all kinds of crazy messages thru the media that may influence us to buy items, desire to be thin, etc; but at the end of the day, it all boils down to the choices we decide to make.

Jael

[LoraHoward]

Jael,
I agree with what you said.
In order to be influenced by anything, we must agree to it. If we make the choice to say no, we are immune to influence.
Mrs. Eddy's and my point, is that throughout the day, there is much stimuli and we unconsciously let a bunch in and thus agree to it, without knowing we are doing so.
That was MBE's caution about the need to protect ourselves, which amounts to being very aware of every thought that passes by and consciously deciding what to do with it.
That is also why Mrs. Eddy's insistence( and St. Pauls --pray without ceasing)on constantly knowing the Truth, which is that God is all, is protection. It makes the blanket choice to disagree with it's negative.
We certainly do have the perpetual ability to make choices about what to let in to our minds, and this does determine our experience.
It is the condition of unawareness that is the problem--not that bad people and demons or something can successfully infiltrate our thought.

--Lora

[NancyJ]

I know someone who was diagnosed with major depression. I definitely change when around the person, maybe it's because I always have to make the conversation, and I just get tired afterawhile, and actually feel some relief when the time together is over. I care about the person, but something seems to change in me, even getting a headache, maybe even a bit depressed! I have a brother who said he experiences the same thing. Choosing not to feel this way, it hasn't happened yet...I try to be upbeat, but the truth is I am struggling to be so when the other person is so depressed. It's like catching the depression, although I know this doesn't have to be the case.

I think we can definitely be influenced by others, and I admire the person who can choose not to be effected. It is definitely an exercise.

Even when I'm around people who gossip, I begin to feel very uncomfortable, and it does effect me. Sometimes carrying it around with me for awhile,too.

If CS can teach me how to rise above these things I say thanks!

[solo]

"All mesmerism is of one of three kinds ; namely , the ignorant,the fraudulent,or the malicious workings of error or mortal mind . Mis 51 :7-9
There are three steps ,that we have to take , and then all forms of mesmerism vanish . Those three steps are self knowledge, humility , love .
To pray,work.and watch.To have God-direct,God-protect,and God-destined mission

[jazzrascal]

Yes, we are bombarded with all kinds of crazy messages thru the media that may influence us to buy items, desire to be thin, etc; but at the end of the day, it all boils down to the choices we decide to make.

Your reasoning is fine as far as it goes, but it doesn't apply to every situation. One time many years ago, when I was living in Brazil and before I knew about Christian Science, someone did a "voodoo" on me. I didn't find out that this was what had happened until years later, but at the time, I came down with a mysterious illness, lost a lot of weight and was unable to get out of bed. I had the constant feeling that I was dying. I finally did manage to recover enough to get on a plane and go back to the USA, and eventually regained my health.

So, it's easy to say these things have no power, and of course in reality they don't, but when you don't have the spiritual tools to combat the belief, you can become an unwitting victim of it.

jazzrascal

[Jael]

Your reasoning is fine as far as it goes, but it doesn't apply to every situation. One time many years ago, when I was living in Brazil and before I knew about Christian Science, someone did a "voodoo" on me. I didn't find out that this was what had happened until years later, but at the time, I came down with a mysterious illness, lost a lot of weight and was unable to get out of bed. I had the constant feeling that I was dying. I finally did manage to recover enough to get on a plane and go back to the USA, and eventually regained my health.

Why are you so convinced that it was the "voodoo" that made you ill? My material senses tells me that it was probably a virus or a bacteria. What diagnosis did your doctor give you?

[LoraHoward]

Thank you Jazzrascal.

I, too, have been maliciously malpracticed upon.
I had to learn through bitter experience, what was my own thought and what was not at all from God, and to stand up to the bad stuff which appeared as my own thought, and also appeared as family members in unfortunate situations.

This gave me a deeper understanding of God and eventually the knowledge that MBE was correct in saying that evil is not real.
She also said that AM has no power but until we really understand that, we must treat it as though it had all power.
We can handle evil through CS treatment, and within our consciousness, but we must gain the skill and strength to do so.
This also gives us ability to recognize mental influence , though subtle, and reverse it early.(Agree with thine adversary quickly)

I find that these "sharp experiences" have helped my practice of CS. Also, such things were extremely difficult and painful to go through. I would no longer blow off anyone's issues about malpractice. It is not real, in the sense that materiality is not real. But, just as we need to deal with sickness and so forth, we need to deal with phases of evil, as they are part of the material, human experience, so must be put off.i.e.,Once we know the foe, we can "off" him.

Another though I had recently was that another reason MBE had her workers treating MAM was for their own protection and betterment as effective workers. Not only were they protecting her and the Movement, they were protecting themselves and becoming more valuable workers in so doing.

--Lora

[levity]

To me, this question really comes down to the nature of existence, which I believe is purely mental.

If you look at things within a strictly material framework--with cause and effect being purely physical--then it's hard to believe that thought could be any kind of influence, or make any kind of impact. But what if matter wasn't the whole story, or the real story, or the story at all? What if the universe were a universe of ideas, of thoughts? Then disease (or trouble of any kind) wouldn't be physical in nature, or some sort of material condition to be overcome, but a false concept, a misconception, to be addressed mentally.

That's the premise on which Christian Science is built--that every misconception can be addressed and healed by discerning its mental nature and then seeing the falsity of that misstatement through an understanding that God is the one and only and infinite Mind. Mind that is wholly good. Incorruptible and uncorrupted. And since what Mind knows is pure good, there is no origin for any misconception. There is no mind to conceive of it, no mind to think it, no mind in which it can lodge. I feel like every healing I've ever had has come down to this point in one way or another. Because if Mind, God, doesn't know evil, didn't create it and doesn't experience it, then how could I as God's idea?

Of course, everything in our existence seems to argue to the contrary. Look around--it sure does seem like there are lots of minds out there, some of which are pretty evil. And so I guess that as long as that's what I seem to see, I am going to defend myself against aggressive suggestions, malpractice, whatever you want to call it. Not in a paranoid way, but because I want to see the reality of God as the only Mind. I want to know God as the one and only influence in my life.

I think the point of this thread is not to argue with people's experiences or to force anyone to "prove" that they have, in fact, been influenced negatively--maliciously or otherwise. (I don't know that you can "prove" something like that--at least not to everyone's satisfaction.) This is, however, an opportunity to share how we can be more alert and effective in recognizing what isn't of God and expunging it from our thoughts and experience. I know that whatever brings me closer to God is definitely worth the effort.

[jazzrascal]

Why are you so convinced that it was the "voodoo" that made you ill? My material senses tells me that it was probably a virus or a bacteria. What diagnosis did your doctor give you?

Yes, your material senses probably would tell you that! Anyway, I don't want to go into a lot of details here, but this sort of thing is not unusual in Brazil, Africa, the Caribbean, and many other countries. I didn't have a doctor's diagnosis, but even if I had and he/she had said it was so-and-so, that still wouldn't prove it had not been caused by the voodoo.

[Do Go Be Man]

Science and Health contains almost 100 uses of the word "dream" including 3 to "Adam dream" and 18 to some form of "mesmer".

Whose dream are we? Mrs. Eddy taught that God never slumbers and that God is All-in-all. Who must be awakened for us to be free of our illusion of mortal existence? How do we relate to and communicate with one another within the Adam dream? How and why did we become aware of the dream?

[Merry1]

I think Mrs. Eddy’s use of the dream analogy can be very helpful, but it also challenges us because we really don’t have a full understanding of what goes on when we dream. When dreaming, the actions of the human mind do not correspond with the actions of the human body, yet the mind is not aware of this disconnect. The mind has experiences, some of which are reflective of reality and some of which are not. When a dreamer sees her mother in a dream and her mother helps and comforts her, this is a good and true reflection of motherhood and the dreamer experiences that reality in her thought, even though the context of the dream is not real. If the mother’s head suddenly morphs into that of a monster’s, however, then that dream experience no longer has any connection to reality, whether the dreamer recognizes it or not at the time. If the dreamer becomes conscious during the dream that the experience is, indeed, nothing but a dream, then the dreamer might be able to change her thought about the mother and eliminate the evil, unreal characteristics while still dreaming. Even if that doesn’t happen, though, the dreamer will eventually wake up. When she awakens, she will realize that she has been dreaming and that the evil monster “mother” was nothing but an ugly, twisted, misconception of motherhood, one that was never real. However, the loving, solicitous image of motherhood that was cognized in the dream will be seen as always having been, and as continuing to be, real. Both during and after the dream experience, it is not necessary or important for the dreamer to know why she ever thought her mother could morph into a monster. All she needs to know in order to dispel that illusion is that her mother never did.

Mrs. Eddy says “the waking dream of mortal existence” (S&H 250) is somewhat like this. Whose dream are we? Well, we are not dreams. We are the representations of God’s Mind. Dream versions of us are not real and were never really us. In order to shake off the dream world, to recognize its unreality and to cognize reality, the dreamer is the one who needs to awaken. Facilitating this awakening (helping dreamers to become aware of the dream, as you say) is what CS is all about. It isn’t easy to become aware of the unreality of a dream while one is still enmeshed in the dream scenario, but it is possible and, when this is achieved, the dream scenario naturally begins to reflect a higher degree of reality until the misconceptions finally disappear altogether. As Mrs. Eddy explains, “absorbed in material selfhood we discern and reflect but faintly the substance of Life or Mind. [However] the denial of material selfhood aids the discernment of man’s spiritual and eternal individuality, and destroys the erroneous knowledge gained from matter or through what are termed the material senses” (S&H 91).

[JudyRae]

Hi jazzrascal,

Your account is very similar to one I heard about a rubber planter, living in the Far East.

This was during the 1950’s and the rubber planter was hated by the locals, They decided to get rid of him. They started banging drums in the hills above the plantation. For three months the planter heard these and thought nothing of them. He knew that when the locals put curses on people they did it by banging drums, but he didn't connect it with himself.

Then one day, he was in the garden when he heard the drums again and he asked the gardener who they were banging the drums against and the gardener said "They're banging them against you - they hate you and they want to get rid of you."

The planter became so ill that he had to return to Britain to save his life. Now, did those drums have any power? Did that curse have any actual power? NO! The only power they had was when the planter gave his consent and began to fear it.

Dr Albert Schweitzer, the medical missionary who established a hospital in the Gambon in the early 20th Century observed how the belief of superstition had a very strong hold in Africa. He was once brought a man who had been told (by a witchdoctor) that he would die if he ever saw his own blood. Though the doctor pleaded with the man that the wound he had sustained could not kill him, the man died. Mary Baker Eddy describes some similar incidences in Science and Health where the person’s own fear was what caused death, rather than any other reason.

This is not quite the same, but I remember seeing a television documentary about a woman who firmly believed that bad luck followed her around - and oh boy it went along with her belief! For instance, she got out of her car in a London park one day, to investigate a noise she thought she heard coming from the car and promptly got hit (and injured) on the head by a dead duck that had come flying through the air (apparently, they sometimes die in mid flight). Now, what are the statistical chances of being hit on the head by a dead duck in the middle of a London park? Pretty remote, unless you believe that bad luck follows you around. :)

In reality, (I’m talking in the absolute here) no-one can actually be cursed, malpractised against or hypnotised because there's no-one and nothing listening! Curses are just superstition - fear passed down from generation to generation. The power that evil seems to have is simply our belief in it. Good is the only power. Good is the only reality. Good is the only presence.

I feel jazzrascal that your experience shows how we all need to daily be obedient to Article VIII, Section 6 of the Church Manual: Alertness to Duty, especially when in countries where there is a strong belief in witchcraft, voodoo etc in the general thought.

JudyRae

[Jael]

I think Mrs. Eddy’s use of the dream analogy can be very helpful, but it also challenges us because we really don’t have a full understanding of what goes on when we dream. When dreaming, the actions of the human mind do not correspond with the actions of the human body, yet the mind is not aware of this disconnect. The mind has experiences, some of which are reflective of reality and some of which are not. When a dreamer sees her mother in a dream and her mother helps and comforts her, this is a good and true reflection of motherhood and the dreamer experiences that reality in her thought, even though the context of the dream is not real. If the mother’s head suddenly morphs into that of a monster’s, however, then that dream experience no longer has any connection to reality, whether the dreamer recognizes it or not at the time. If the dreamer becomes conscious during the dream that the experience is, indeed, nothing but a dream, then the dreamer might be able to change her thought about the mother and eliminate the evil, unreal characteristics while still dreaming. Even if that doesn’t happen, though, the dreamer will eventually wake up. When she awakens, she will realize that she has been dreaming and that the evil monster “mother” was nothing but an ugly, twisted, misconception of motherhood, one that was never real. However, the loving, solicitous image of motherhood that was cognized in the dream will be seen as always having been, and as continuing to be, real. Both during and after the dream experience, it is not necessary or important for the dreamer to know why she ever thought her mother could morph into a monster. All she needs to know in order to dispel that illusion is that her mother never did.

Mrs. Eddy says “the waking dream of mortal existence” (S&H 250) is somewhat like this. Whose dream are we? Well, we are not dreams. We are the representations of God’s Mind. Dream versions of us are not real and were never really us. In order to shake off the dream world, to recognize its unreality and to cognize reality, the dreamer is the one who needs to awaken. Facilitating this awakening (helping dreamers to become aware of the dream, as you say) is what CS is all about. It isn’t easy to become aware of the unreality of a dream while one is still enmeshed in the dream scenario, but it is possible and, when this is achieved, the dream scenario naturally begins to reflect a higher degree of reality until the misconceptions finally disappear altogether. As Mrs. Eddy explains, “absorbed in material selfhood we discern and reflect but faintly the substance of Life or Mind. [However] the denial of material selfhood aids the discernment of man’s spiritual and eternal individuality, and destroys the erroneous knowledge gained from matter or through what are termed the material senses” (S&H 91).

I'm so utterly confused by all this verbage and circular logic. Is CS always this convoluded? In two words, whose dream are we in?

[levity]

Jael,

If you’re confused by this discussion, I’d say your best option is to go straight to the source—to read Mary Baker Eddy’s textbook on Christian Science, Science and Health. You can download a pdf of the book for free by going here:

http://www.christianscience.com/mary-baker-eddy-books.html

This is the complete explanation of Christian Science and has always provided me with the answers I’ve been looking for.

Like others on this site, I’m sure you consider yourself a student of the Bible and of Christian Science, and while these discussions can be very helpful in getting ideas out there and sharing perspectives, no one here is an expert. We’re all learning as we go. I think it’s important that we’re respectful of each other as we do move forward in our understanding and in putting that understanding (which, for me at least, is often more of a feeling thing than an intellectual thing) into words. I know I appreciate the thought people put into their responses and I’m sure you do, too.

And I don’t know if this helps, but to answer your question (at least as far as I’ve come to understand things): In two words, whose dream are we in? No one’s. The bottom line is set out in Mary Baker Eddy’s “scientific statement of being” (on p. 468 of S&H) where she wrote, “All is infinite Mind and its infinite manifestation, for God is All-in-all.” Where in that explanation is there room for a mind to dream, or for matter, evil, or anything unlike God, good, to exist? Nowhere.

The question of who’s dreaming (along with some other questions about the nature of existence that have been explored in the thread “Why are we here?”) can seem very compelling. But in my own experience, at least, I’ve found that I don’t get anywhere by trying to understand a lie. I kind of think of it as walking into a room and seeing 3 x 3 = 6 on the board. How are you going to fix that error? Are you going to fix it by staring at it, wondering how it came to be, wondering who made the mistake? Or are you going to use what you know of the principle of mathematics to correct it?

In the same way, for me, focusing on God (the Principle of the universe!), on getting to know God better, on understanding more clearly who and what God is, is the only way I’ve found to understand reality, to learn more about my own identity, and yes, to find healing.

[LoraHoward]

Jael,

I agree with Levity.

CS can be summed up with: God is All.

All the rest is our current best attempts at figuring out what that means.

--Lora

[Jael]

Jael,


Like others on this site, I’m sure you consider yourself a student of the Bible and of Christian Science, and while these discussions can be very helpful in getting ideas out there and sharing perspectives, no one here is an expert. We’re all learning as we go. I think it’s important that we’re respectful of each other as we do move forward in our understanding and in putting that understanding (which, for me at least, is often more of a feeling thing than an intellectual thing) into words. I know I appreciate the thought people put into their responses and I’m sure you do, too.

With all due respect, I consider myself a student of the Bible. For me, it is the rock that I want to build my faith on. All other is the sand. I find the Bible by itself all one needs to understand God.

[/QUOTE]
But in my own experience, at least, I’ve found that I don’t get anywhere by trying to understand a lie. I kind of think of it as walking into a room and seeing 3 x 3 = 6 on the board. How are you going to fix that error? Are you going to fix it by staring at it, wondering how it came to be, wondering who made the mistake? Or are you going to use what you know of the principle of mathematics to correct it? [/QUOTE]

I have heard so many CSers use the math logic. Anyway, help me understand what happens when you apply the pricinciple to healing and the healing doesn't happen? Is the person at fault for not understanding God or the principle? If it is the person, I'm stunned. God of the Bible would never put that type of burden on his creation. He's a loving God. How to CSers reconcile this? I would hate to think that someone would allow themselves to die unnecesarrily trying to apply a principle that simply wont work.

[levity]

Jael,

I can’t speak for other Christian Scientists, but the reason the math analogy makes sense to me is because I do think of God as divine Principle—as the benevolent lawmaker whose government holds creation intact, in the same way that there’s a principle of mathematics that keeps 8 from being 15 or 3 or 43. In the same way that there's a principle that makes 3 x 3 = 9 and every number times zero equal zero. Etc.

What gets in the way of this analogy is the imperfection of human language to describe spiritual things. I talk about this in my post on the thread “Christian Science Principles versus Math Principles,” but here’s some of what I wrote:

“With regard to your question about mathematical principles, I'd say that even though you are "solving" 2 + 2 = 4, it's the principle of mathematics, not you yourself, that's responsible for "making" 2 plus 2 equal 4. It's the principle that causes that equation to be true and 2 + 2 = 5 to be false. I guess you could say that in solving the equation you're applying the principle, but you could also think of it as coming into line with what the principle has already established.

So to put that into the context of Christian Science, in a way, I think we do ourselves a disservice sometimes by saying we "apply" those spiritual laws because divine Principle just *is.* It upholds itself. It maintains its creation. It created perfection and holds that perfection intact. I find that healing comes for me the most readily when I stop trying desperately to "apply" something and instead acknowledge the always-active presence and power of that one, omnipotent Principle. Really, if "perfect Principle and idea" is "the basis for thought and demonstration," then isn't our job just to yield to what God is already doing, to feel convinced that reality is intact and whole always?”

In other words, Jael, I agree with you. A loving God would never put the burden of healing—or even the application of some law—on its creation. But that’s the beauty of it—God hasn’t and doesn’t. God, who is Principle itself, made us and maintains us. And through His great love, that’s what He’s showing us in every moment.

[jazzrascal]

The planter became so ill that he had to return to Britain to save his life. Now, did those drums have any power? Did that curse have any actual power? NO! The only power they had was when the planter gave his consent and began to fear it.

I feel jazzrascal that your experience shows how we all need to daily be obedient to Article VIII, Section 6 of the Church Manual: Alertness to Duty, especially when in countries where there is a strong belief in witchcraft, voodoo etc in the general thought.

JudyRae

Yes, we do need to be alert, and in my case I didn't give my consent because I had no idea that a certain individual had hired someone to do a "work" on me. Our safety lies in knowing there is only ONE MIND.

[adyer]

Anyway, help me understand what happens when you apply the pricinciple to healing and the healing doesn't happen? Is the person at fault for not understanding God or the principle? If it is the person, I'm stunned. God of the Bible would never put that type of burden on his creation. He's a loving God. How to CSers reconcile this? I would hate to think that someone would allow themselves to die unnecesarrily trying to apply a principle that simply wont work.

You hit the nail on the head, Jael. That is what Mrs. Eddy refers to as "experimental sin." God does not make man incapable of reflecting (demonstrating) Principle in its perfection at any time. Consider the example of the man born blind. The disciples ask Jesus whether the man or his parents were at fault. Jesus plainly declares that no one is at fault. The only purpose is to see God at work. In other words, the only result of error is to destroy itself.

I was healed today of a roaring headache. I could hardly stay conscious to read my lesson. My healing came when I read in the lesson (I think this is it): "His way is perfect." I have always focused on the perfection of Principle and that the only claim that healing doesn't happen is the claim that Principle could be less than perfect. When I took my stand, the healing happened right then and there.

To struggle over the question of whether the person or Principle is at fault is to proceed from the assumption that either one could be. The truth is that all is infinite Mind and that Principle is perfect. To begin there and not begin from imperfection with the hope of reaching perfection, is key.