crime victims

[NancyJ]

And yet another question came today: (while food shopping no less!):confused:

If you were to speak with a crime victim, how would you acknowledge the evil of it in terms of CS?

Thank you, Nancy

[Peter J]

Hi Nancy,
My first thoughts would be that of compassion and love. How that love manifested itself it terms of words and actions would be different in every situation. But kindness and compassion heals, and that is the most important thing!

Someone who has been the victim of crime wants more than anything to rediscover their sense of peace and joy, and in my experience acknowledging God's omnipotent and ever-present care for me has helped the most in doing just that. Also this idea I find very helpful - "The only power of evil is to destroy itself. It can never destroy one iota of good" (Science and Health p.186)

I used these ideas once when I was attacked in the street once, and had a complete healing, both from injuries and thoughts of anger and fear.

[NancyJ]

Your response would be most beneficial to beginning the healing process, and that is so very important.

But this is where I have the most difficulty understanding CS. For example, the victim experienced something horrible, is that acknowledged or ignored by CS?
I am not thinking of a person who has initiated calling a practitioner asking for healing, I am asking about a CS sitting down with a person who has just experienced violence, or something along those lines. Wouldn't it be like the elephant in the room if it's not acknowledged?...it was significant to the victim.

:confused:
Nancy

[levity]

I've wrestled with these questions myself, especially when several close friends were the victims of crime.

In terms of whether or not Christian Science "acknowledges" evil, the best answer I can give is that, in my understanding, CS doesn't ignore evil, but it also sees it for what it is: nothing claiming to be something. Because if God is good and all-powerful and all-inclusive, how could that possibly leave room for evil?

However, I've also discovered that starting with evil--even if it's just to see its powerlessness--doesn't really get me anywhere.

Which is why I think, in cases such as the one you describe, it's vital to begin with God. As PeterJ points out, what a person who's been the victim of a crime most wants is to feel comforted. To feel the kind of unshakable peace and love that come from knowing you're in the presence of God. And by beginning with God--by knowing who God is and what He's doing (and has always been doing) for His creation--you'll be able to see your friend or acquaintance as they really are: untouched by evil, since they've always been fully embraced by God.

Clearly, every case is different. Some people want validation that what they've been through was horrible. If that's the case, you can find ways to move them toward a solution by assuring them of their safety and connection to God (while being clear in your own thought about the nature of God and (therefore) the impotence of evil). In my own experience, this approach has never felt like avoidance; it's felt like sticking with what's true, even while expressing compassion.

The bottom line is, your desire to help springs from divine Love, and that same Love that's impelling you to help will also show you how to pray and what to say.

[NancyJ]

I really admire how CS try and live their daily lives on inspiration from God,
praying before speaking. Thank you for your examples and help.

If the victim wanted some sort of validation, I think it's important to do so but then redirect to God's Love.
I have read, in some cases, CS seemed to just smile and ignore the evil someone was telling them had happened, (which made me a bit nervous), and although evil really has no substance, the victim might need to have some sort of validation at that point in time.

I don't write the above to offend CS, but it has been something I've tried to understand. It could seem very cold to the victim if they felt the need to talk about what had occurred, and it was avoided.

I hope this comes across the way I've intended, with an honest question, and there is no bad intent.

Thanks,
Nancy

[levity]

What I try to remind myself all the time is that Christian Science is fundamentally Christian--that it's about love. And just smiling and ignoring evil, pretending it never happened, etc., doesn't sound like the approach to Christian Science (or to interacting with others) that expresses Christianity or love.

But as I said before, I think one key thing to remember is that every case is unique. I mean, just as one example, look at all the different ways Jesus approached healing. In some cases, he spoke in parables--in the language of the people. He didn't just stand around spouting off lofty truths that no one could grasp. There were many times when he spoke plainly, using metaphors.

In other cases, Jesus literally denied the evil--like when he healed Jairus's daughter. Everyone in that house was distraught, and what did Jesus say? He said, "She isn't dead, only sleeping." To grief-stricken parents, this could seem like the cruelest statement imaginable, even a mockery of their pain. And yet, Jesus said this with such compassion--coupled with such a conviction of what was true about that child--that Jairus's daughter was healed instantly. And so in that instance, the denial of the evil--and of the pain and suffering--was actually an important part of the healing. Of course, it was coupled with Jesus' understanding of God and the true nature of that child, but I find it interesting that he made it a point to stand outside the maelstrom of emotion in favor of standing with Truth. Clearly, that was a powerful--and healing--stand.

All that being said, there have been times when I've been hurt or sick or struggling when a Christian Science practitioner hasn't "acknowledged" what's going on, so to speak, and it's really bothered me. I've wondered if he or she has understood what I'm going through. And yet, every time--without exception--I've come to see that that person's conviction of God's care for me was actually the greatest gift I could have been given. I remember one time when a practitioner responded to something I'd said with, "All is well." It really irked me and I thought, "That's just pablum. And it's not even true." But about two minutes after I got off the phone, I realized that what she was saying was actually true. All was well because God was there. There wasn't anything to be afraid of. And I was healed right then. That's really stuck with me.

I think we're all learning every day how to be better Christians, and better Christian Scientists. This means we all still have growing to do, and we don't always do or say the right things. What I can say for myself, though, is that I certainly hope that when I encounter someone who's hurting that I do my utmost to help that person feel loved--no matter what kind of a response that calls for.

[NancyJ]

Exactly what I was inquiring about....awesome. Thanks.
Nancy

[shelly]

I was just speaking with a friend on this very subject.

We both looked at a passage from Science and Health that talks about Jacob and his struggle for healing -

"Then said the spiritual evangel: "Let me go, for the day breaketh;" that is, the light of Truth and Love dawns upon thee. But the patriarch, perceiving his error and his need of help, did not loosen his hold upon this glorious light until his nature was transformed. When Jacob was asked, "What is thy name?" he straightway answered; and then his name was changed to Israel, for "as a prince" had he prevailed and had "power with God and with men." Then Jacob questioned his deliverer, "Tell me, I pray thee, thy name;" but this appellation was withheld, for the messenger was not a corporeal being, but a nameless, incorporeal impartation of divine Love to man, which, to use the word of the Psalmist, restored his Soul,--gave him the spiritual sense of being and rebuked his material sense."

It's interesting that the spiritual truth, "the light of Truth and Love dawns upon thee" is spoken to his consciousness. Yet Jacob does not loosen his hold until he knows for himself that his nature is transformed.

The spiritual truth is what restores his sense of being. We can be gentle and kind, but it is the priviledge of the practitioner to acknowledge the glorious spiritual communication that is always alive between God and man.

[NancyJ]

This really has me stumped....still....

Sorry for this graphic example, but unfortunetly these things happen, and I am trying to view it as CS do.
Example:
I am kidnapped, kept in someone's basement, tortured, abused, etc...for days. The whole time I would be praying for God to help me, believing He knows what is happening, and help is coming in some form from Him. The perpetrator chose to commit this sin, I don't believe God tempts people to sin or causes sin...but I believe my Father in heaven, God, sees and knows what is happening, is not pleased, and is hearing my prayers for help. God is aware.
Sometimes it works that the victim is rescued, other times the person is murdered, and laws are passed that will help to ensure a greater punishment or a better way of dealing with the crime/criminal so the greater good may occur. Anotherwords making a positive change from something that was evil.

In CS, God would not be aware of the horrible situation I am in, and asking for help?

[imjim]

If you were to speak with a crime victim, how would you acknowledge the evil of it in terms of CS?

Example:
I am kidnapped, kept in someone's basement, tortured, abused, etc. . . In CS, God would not be aware of the horrible situation I am in, and asking for help?

In last weeks lesson, we read (Ex 2:2-5) that Moses was put into an arc in the river in order to be saved. In the previous paragraph of that lesson (Ex 1:22), Pharaoh had decreed that “Every son . . . shall be cast into the river. . .”

I’d never noticed before that the very river that was used to kill so many children was also the means that enabled the child Moses to escape the same fate. It’s as if the very thing used by man to destroy, was also God’s vehicle to heal and bless. Turning a stumbling block into a stepping stone.

I have talked with non CS students over the years who grew up in almost exactly the circumstances you mention.

What I have found most helpful, is to be clear in my own thinking about their relationship to God. To “see” them as God’s child, and to “know” that He was / is working His purpose out - despite any outward appearance. Keeping my thinking floating on the top of the river has often meant that I needed to just listen. At other times, it meant that I voiced a truth relative to the situation.

Verbal abuse is often a symptom of these situations.

While striving here to avoid a formula, or ritual for dealing with verbal abuse, the idea behind “If he had called you a chair, would that make you a chair?” is a simply stated basic truth. I’ve found that sharing, in simple terms, that a person is not defined by what other people call them, can have a profound effect. It can help to break the mesmerism of the moment and can have far reaching effects - even to the point of alleviating the effects of physical abuse.

The promise implied in Mrs. Eddy’s words in Misc. (354:15) “a few truths tenderly told, . . . make manifest the movement of body and soul in accord with God” has been made plainer to me by these experiences. Truth truely does liberate.

I find that we too, can learn to float on the river instead of being tossed in by pharaoh. Thus proving that God does supply our true needs and we can learn to share the tender lessons involved.

Hope this helps,
Jim

[NancyJ]

I appreciate your explanation, Jim, thank you. But, I really just want to hear the bottom line....would God, as CS know Him, be aware of the victim's situation? I understand how blessings can be brought about by God even despite horrible situations, but as the person is going through the horrible situation (abuses of every kind), is God aware?

[levity]

Hi Nancy,

To say that God is not "aware" when someone is going through something terrible (such as the abuse you describe, for instance) makes God sound like a neglectful, uncaring parent.

So I get your question, but I think a more productive one might be, In Christian Science, what do we believe God is aware of?

If I thought God were aware of my plight or of some awful circumstance I was in, I would have a hard time trusting that God. After all, how could I trust a Being that claims to be omnipotent, but who apparently stands aside while I suffer?

That's why I *love* the Christian Science view of God--because this God doesn't create, allow, or know evil. God, who fills all space, is supremely good, supremely loving. And it's because of this that I feel I can trust God. I trust Him to have created a universe that's wholly good, to have included me in this universe, and to allow no harm to come to me.

So what about when I've gone through experiences in my life that seem incredibly challenging? What I've come to see is that God is completely aware of me in those times--the way any loving parent would be. He's not standing off to the side. He's not allowing something bad to happen. It's only my own mistaken view, my misconception of who I am (and who God is), that makes God seem absent and the predicament more real than God's care and presence.

In another thread someone quoted a passage from Science and Health that I find really instructive. It says: "It is our ignorance of God, the divine Principle, which produces apparent discord, and the right understanding of Him restores harmony" (p. 390).

I can't explain where evil comes from or why bad things seem to happen, but I do know that when I turn my thoughts to God, when I really know Him for who He is, then I'm either protected from bad or painful situations, or healed of the "scars" from something that happened in the past.

One quick example ... In late elementary school, I was tormented by a girl who alternated between being my "friend" and abusing me. It was a painful time, but I moved on to a different school (and then a different state) and didn't think much of it after that ... Until about 15 years later when I was suddenly thrust back into contact with her.

Well, this raised a whole tidal wave of memories that seemed to have left emotional scars and I was really struggling to know what to think or how to move on. It was hard to even start with forgiveness because I just felt she'd been so cruel.

And then, do you know what occurred to me? This thought: You can admit that the only thing that's ever touched you is God's love. That was so profound to me because I realized that my past interactions with this girl would argue that something could come between God and me. That for an instant--or for several years--divine Love had been absent. That this girl had more power over me than God. And when I thought about it, I saw how absurd that was.

That was the beginning of the healing for me. When I started admitting divine Love's constant care for me, when I started countering these painful memories with the truth that I'd always been connected to Love, that Love had always been holding me, the pain and anger and hurt just faded away. I'm not talking about just positive thinking here or "convincing myself" that something didn't happen. I'm talking about having a conviction of my unbroken relationship with God, and exchanging my mistaken views about myself (and this girl) for divine Love's version of events.

And the effect of this prayer is something I couldn't have imagined 15 years ago. I literally feel, now, as though I never went through that experience and have gone on to develop a friendly relationship with this woman.

That's the power of knowing a God that doesn't know evil (because He's so completely good).

[David]

It's sort of a tricky question, NancyJ. Bottom line: No, God is not aware of the crime. And that's a good thing. If He were aware of it, it would be real. And if it's real, you're stuck with it.

It's like sickness. Sickness isn't real, and the fact that it isn't is what allows us to heal it spiritually.

Does God know you're sick? No. But that doesn't mean God is of no help when you're sick. When we're ill, we pray to know more about God, not more about the sickness. And divine Love, which precludes sickness, can permeate our consciousness, which drives out any belief of sickness and heals.

The same holds true for a crime or any other evil. God isn't aware of it, but there's no better help in such a situation than God. Just like the best remedy for a bad dream is to wake up and discover it's not real.

This doesn't mean the first thing to say to a crime victim is "Oh, it wasn't real, so just get over it." As someone else pointed out, that wasn't Christ Jesus' method in healing. But we can strive to be like him and keep consciousness filled with Truth and Love so we can comfort anyone in the best way possible.

That's my take, anyway.

[mhnlm]

I appreciate your explanation, Jim, thank you. But, I really just want to hear the bottom line....would God, as CS know Him, be aware of the victim's situation? I understand how blessings can be brought about by God even despite horrible situations, but as the person is going through the horrible situation (abuses of every kind), is God aware?

Hi Nancy:
I appreciate your concern -- it is not an uncommon quandry ...

The point of your question "as CS knows" is the major distinction ...
One way of looking at it is seeing that CS recognizes God as Principle ... then consdiering other princniples, such as math -- if "math" were conscious, would it "know" 2+2=5? Or, because of its ever present immutable perfection, it is the omnipotent and omnipresent law of that principle which does not permit anything other thn n its perfection to "work" -- thus it is becuase the pricniple is present and functioning that we can see the error of 2+2=5.

The Principle contains, includes constitues, permits NO error of any kind.

"Science knows no lapse from nor return to harmony, but holds the divine order or spiritual law, in which God and all that He creates are perfect and eternal, to have remained unchanged in its eternal history." (S&H 471:1-5)

"The consciousness of good has no consciousness or knowledge of evil; and evil is not a quality to be known or eliminated by good:" (MW 259:9-11)

Irrespective of what appearances might be presented to your thought, it is important to recall the admonition in the Textbook:

"The starting-point of divine Science is that God, Spirit, is All-in-all, and that there is no other might nor Mind," (S&H 275:6-8)

"For right reasoning there should be but one fact before the thought, namely, spiritual existence. In reality there is no other existence." (S&H 492:3-5)

And, especially important:

"Until the heavenly law of health, according to Christian Science, is firmly grounded, even the thinkers are not prepared to answer intelligently leading questions about God and sin, and the world is far from ready to assimilate such a grand and all-absorbing verity concerning the divine nature and character as is embraced in the theory of God's blindness to error and ignorance of sin.
No wise mother, though a graduate of Wellesley College, will talk to her babe about the problems of Euclid." (Unity of Good 6:13-21)

As a pratitoner of over 25 years, I can assure you that following those "rules" ones finds that what may be relevant at the moment often spontaneously comes to thought.
The point is focusing on what IS Right, or, as she calls it, "the correct view," provides the greates opportunity to know "what to say.";)

With ALL Blessings
Michael
:)

[JudyRae]

Hi Nancy,

I’m so grateful for your searching, honest and challenging questions! I’m also so grateful for everyone’s answers – I’m learning so much on here.

When we are comforting people who are not students of Christian Science, I feel we really have to pray to be shown the right words to say (or not to say!) as well as the right actions to take. As others on this thread have said, the most important thing is to express love, compassion and understanding. We should speak in the relative (relating to the human condition) but think and pray in the absolute (relating to God, divine reality).

Mary Baker Eddy gives us instruction on this several times – here are two examples, but first, the most essential and animating part (and I’ve marked it from the beginning of the paragraph as it is worth reading it all):

The vital part, the heart and soul of Christian Science, is Love. (Science and Health 112:32)

If Christian healing is abused by mere smatterers in Science, it becomes a tedious mischief-maker. Instead of scientifically effecting a cure, it starts a petty crossfire over every cripple and invalid, buffeting them with the superficial and cold assertion, "Nothing ails you." (Science and Health 460:18)

The tender word and Christian encouragement of an invalid, pitiful patience with his fears and the removal of them, are better than hecatombs of gushing theories, stereotyped borrowed speeches, and the doling of arguments, which are but so many parodies on legitimate Christian Science, aflame with divine Love. (Science and Health 367:3)

But there is a HUGE difference between sympathy, which, to me, is like seeing your friend who has fallen down into a pit and jumping down into it in order to be with him and commiserate; and compassion, which is seeing your friend down the pit and throwing him a rope to pull him out. Jesus practised compassion, never sympathy.

JudyRae

[NancyJ]

From everyone's replies here I have started to see a little more. Thanks, everyone has put their heart and soul into helping.

My next question is, if the crime victim is not able to pray, or doesn't have the mental capacity to pray, and no one is praying for them, they aren't able to practice CS, are they? If God is not seeing the crime because it's error, how can the person be helped by Him? How is the error reversed? Doesn't it involve effort?

If I am missing the point still, sorry! It's much different thinking than what I'm accustomed to, and although I see a glimmer of light about it, it can be confusing. I understand it takes study, it's always a progression, but I'm trying to grab the fundamentals. SH is helpful, but I'm finding this board helpful, too.

Thank you.....!!!!

[David]

This is where the Christ comes in. You may be familiar with the way Mary Baker Eddy defines Christ at one point in Science and Health (p. 332): "Christ is the true idea voicing good, the divine message from God to men speaking to the human consciousness. The Christ is incorporeal, spiritual,--yea, the divine image and likeness, dispelling the illusions of the senses; the Way, the Truth, and the Life, healing the sick and casting out evils, destroying sin, disease, and death." The Christ is active; it's not just sitting around waiting for someone to find it. Even if someone doesn't know the Christ exists--in fact, even if someone is sure the Christ doesn't exist--the Christ is still speaking to consciousness, and it can be heard no matter what the circumstance.

Maybe you're also familiar with the place in the preface (p. xi) to Science and Health that talks about "Immanuel, or 'God with us,'--a divine influence ever present in human consciousness and repeating itself, coming now as was promised aforetime,
To preach deliverance to the captives [of sense],
And recovering of sight to the blind,
To set at liberty them that are bruised. Again, that's the Christ--active, working, effective, getting the job done.

Finally, I'll quote this from Science and Health (p. 207) too:"Evil is not supreme; good is not helpless; nor are the so-called laws of matter primary, and the law of Spirit secondary." No one is lost. No one can ever be in a situation where the Christ isn't available and active to help, heal, redeem--whatever. We don't have to make the Christ work; it works independently. No material circumstance can stop it. God and His goodness are the law, and no presumed material law or circumstance can stop them. We may not always hear the Christ, and it's great to have an understanding of God and reality such as Christian Science provides so we may be more open to the Christ, but the Christ can break through what appear to be tremendous barriers (just ask Saul/Paul about his trip to Damascus!).

At least that's the way I see it.

[mhnlm]

Hi Nancy:
I appreciate your question, and I submit that it is necessary to recognize, to begin with, that Christian Science is not presented as merely a "remedy" for "human circumstances," but is rather, the Science of Being which reveals that NO "circumstances" have ever been "human."

Your question:

[QUOTE=NancyJ;1077]if the crime victim is not able to pray, or doesn't have the mental capacity to pray, and no one is praying for them, they aren't able to practice CS, are they? If God is not seeing the crime because it's error, how can the person be helped by Him? How is the error reversed? Doesn't it involve effort?
QUOTE]

has a common fallacy within it that makes it difficult to understand -- fundamentally, it is necessary in Science to appreciate, that one cannot solve a problem at the level of the problem.

Asking a question regarding what the "victim" might do, or what can be done for the victim, is overlooking the unfortunate presupposition that there "is" a "victim," which is not how Christian Science practice begins.

It is not unlike the question: "what can be done for/about the "flat earth?"

It is helpful to appreciate Mrs. Eddy's clarification:

"to be understood, the author calls sick and sinful humanity mortal mind," (S&H 114:2-3)

And:

"Mortal mind alone suffers, (S&H 184:20-21)

So, from the standpoint of Science, the apparent "victim" is recognized to be "mortal mind" and not "Man." Therefore, the notion of what "mortal mind" should do, doesn't actually apply from a Metaphysical perspective.

The primary issue for the Christian Scientist is "what am I accepting as True at the standpoint of my own thought?"

As we know what IS True (not what one hopes may become true) we may see the entire experience differently, or be "led," so to speak, to take certain steps -- or not.

It is recorded that Bicknell Young once said,

"It is more important to know Right IS, than to know what is right."

I certainly appreciate that this perspective may be quite a bit different from what is "popular," but I assure you that your consideration of it will be worthwhile.;)

With ALL Blessings,
Michael
:)

[newunfoldment]

Abuse of any kind or nature is a "blundering dispatch" about man- both as a victim, or a victimizer.

Man is neither a victim or a villain. It is a mistaken identity of man, which needs to be corrected and healed through our alertness, compassion, forgiveness, and prayers.

[NancyJ]

If you ask, I can list them from the Bible, but right now I'm not near one, so I hope will know what I'm referring to....
There are just so many places in the Bible where it mentions God sees the evil ways of people. I've asked before, but still don't get it....how can that be reconciled with CS beliefs that God is not aware of evil?
My thoughts are that God does not tempt people to do evil, but they have chosen to do so with their gift of free will....God's love and patience don't change for the person, He loves them, but He does not like the sin. He does not want anyone to perish due to sin. Like a loving Father, he provides many, many ways for us to return to Him (by sending his son, Jesus, by mercy, etc...).
I have tried and tried, and would like to understand, but although God is Good, and Love, and we are His image, it seems to me we are human and fail many times, and his Love and Goodness help us to overcome.
Even the equation 2 plus 2 equals four doesn't help, sorry to say!

You all seem so intelligent, love God with your whole heart, are trying to live the Christian life, so what am I missing????? I don't think the dream explanation can help.

Thank you!

[levity]

Hi Nancy,

The way I understand it, it's only a mistaken view of God that would make evil seem real. And it's only a mistaken view of God that would make Him appear to be a God who knows both good and evil.

I totally hear you on the Old Testament, but what I've come to over time as I've studied the Bible as a whole is that a God who sees evil wouldn't be omnipotent. Why would God stand back while His children made mistakes, got hurt, and basically destroyed His good work? That makes no sense to me.

And that's why I feel like the OT is sort of the story of mankind's path out of darkness--out of a belief of many gods to a faith in one God, out of a belief of a God who sees evil, or who knows both good and evil, or even who sends evil, to an understanding that God is pure Love and wholly good, as Jesus taught.

Which is why I said at the beginning that it's not God that sees evil (from my perspective) but a mistaken view of God--as something less than omnipotent, something less than pure, something less than a loving Father-Mother--that makes evil seem real and powerful.

In Science and Health Mary Baker Eddy asked, "Does God create a material man out of Himself, Spirit? Does evil proceed from good? Does divine Love commit a fraud on humanity by making man inclined to sin, and then punishing him for it?" (p. 356). That's from the chapter "Some objections answered," which you might find interesting to explore. And basically, her one word answer to these questions is: No. That in fact, such a scenario would be impossible.

I don't know that I (or anyone else for that matter) can "prove" what I've been talking about in this post. But what I do know is, every healing I've had has involved replacing misconceptions about God and/or the way He created me with the reality of God's totally complete and pure love and goodness.

Whenever I catch a glimpse of God in that way, whenever I see just a smidgen of the universe He created, a universe with no element of evil in it, whatever in my life is inharmonious, painful, fear-inducing, or just generally bad, disappears. To me this says that it couldn't have had any reality to begin with. But it also says that I only get to the point of seeing the unreality of evil by focusing on what's real and good.

Hope this helps.

[mhnlm]

Hi Nancy:
I'm sorry the explanations haven't been as helpful as you'd like -- I certainly appreciate your perseverance!

One thing that has been very helpful in understanding the Bible, is the appreciation that it is 66 Books by different authors, at different times, compiled into one volume.
That is why a major Tenet of Christian Science is that:

"As adherents of Truth, we take the inspired Word of the Bible as our sufficient guide to eternal Life." (S&H 497:3-4)

The various authors of the different books were obviously Divinely inspired -- yet they each seemed to have their own particular "style" of presenting the inspiration -- usually depending upon the particular "audience" at hand. (Notice Jesus had a different presentation with his disciples in contrast with the general public, whom he often gave parables.)

The point is that those references to God "seeing and knowing evil" -- to me, are best appreciated as more in the form of "poetic license," or as a teaching parable (such as the second chapter of Genesis - rather than an accurate portrayal (such as the First chapter) -- obviously both chapters can't be equally true, so the "form and intention" comes into play.

Consider the familiar terms referencing God -- "Infinite," "Omnipresent," -- it's hard to accept those terms as true, and also think that something else can exist besides the Infinite, and that which exists AS the ALL and only, everywhere, Presence.

In that, the notion of "evil" - is classified as the suggestion, the false impression, that That which is Omnipresent could be absent -- just as the notion of the "joined tracks, water on the road, or flat earth" -- they may appear quite genuine from a limited perspective, but once one has "looked up, lift up your head" (see Luke 21:28) -- in other words, lifted their perspective from the human to the Divine, the "false impression" no longer appears.

The real "key" is found in the recognition of the meaning of prayer in Christian Science.
In contrast with the popular notion that we want someone or something to be changed "over there" -- (it is somewhat like seeing 2+2=5 on the chalkboard, and believing it is true, and then hoping something can be done to make the board change.)

In Science we realize that the only thing that prayer actually "changes" is the misconception that "we" are currently holding about the Creation that God proclaimed from the beginning, "Very Good". In acknowledging God as Omnipotent, (the all and only Power) we appreciate that there really could be no other power to ever alter what God has made.

"I know that, whatsoever God doeth, it shall be for ever: nothing can be put to it, nor any thing taken from it:" (Ecclesiastes 3:14)

Mrs. Eddy reminds us:

"It is our ignorance of God, the Divine Principle, which produces apparent discord, and the right understanding of Him restores harmony. Truth will at length compel us all to exchange the pleasures and pains of sense for the joys of Soul." (S&H 390:7-11)

Just as the sun knows nothing of the clouds and darkness it dispels, so the Divine Principle that is ALL-Love -- doesn't see "evil" any more that He sees a "flat earth."

Hope that gets closer to resolving the dilemma for you ....

With ALL Blessings
Michael
):->

[shelly]

Confidence that disaster or crime is not from God and is no part of God, has helped me find freedom from the effects of violent crime and more than once protected me.


What God knows and how God knows it is a very old question. Typically God is presented as an omniscient being whose creation is "material reality". God sets up on high, knows the future, the past, and the present - and watches his creation.

If this is God, and God sees a man walking toward an intersection - and sees a car coming toward the intersection. A typical theological question is "Can God intervene?" "Did God create the scenario", "If God can intervene, and doesn't - what does that imply?'

So, the question of what God knows, and the complexity of answering that question exists in all theology.

Christian Science however rejects the premise that God created the material world and is now somehow maintaining that material world. The basis for rejecting those concepts comes from Jesus' own teaching.

I have learned in Christian Science that the Christ, that element of God that speaks to humanity, does come to our consciousness - everyone's consciousness, no matter where they are. The Christ touches the human heart and reveals the present existence of perfect spiritual reality - The Kingdom of Heaven" So even though God is unaware of our mistaken views of existence. The very nature of God, Truth continues to shine and naturally breaks through to human consciousness, revealing to us - the beauty of what God knows about us.

"Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.]]]
2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure."


This quote from 1st John hints that there is a spiritual understanding, beyond what we see materially. It says "the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not." Just as "the world knoweth us not" - God knoweth not that world.

Instead, this "seeing as he is" is seeing how God sees. Seeing spiritual reality which is perfect. You don't have to be a Christian Scientist to find freedom from the paradoxes of materiality, like disaster and crime. But an open heart helps.

[JudyRae]

There are just so many places in the Bible where it mentions God sees the evil ways of people. I've asked before, but still don't get it....how can that be reconciled with CS beliefs that God is not aware of evil?

Well, at least we get a glimpse of this in Hab 1:13: Thou art of purer eyes than to behold evil, and canst not look on iniquity:

Well, here you are again Nancy, doing more knocking and seeking! Welcome back! :) I think you get confused with the difference between the relative (relating to the human condition) and the absolute (relating to absolute Truth, absolute Reality) When we read S&H, we need to ask ourselves whether the passage is in the relative or the absolute. God is always in the absolute.

You’ve had some great answers so far, but let me see if I can help with my use of metaphors:

I have often told the little allegory of three neighbours - one had wet washing indoors, the next an ailing house plant in a dark corner, the third, no hot water, but solar panels still in their boxes.

In each case, the answer to their problem was to do something - to go outside and put their "problem" in contact with the heat, light and energy of the sun. The sun didn't know of those individual problems, (or evils?) it was just being the sun - shining away, pouring out heat, light and energy, providing the solutions, meeting the needs, without being aware of the problems. I see God, divine Mind, something like that.

Of course in our material existence, our mortal senses tell us that there is evil. It's in our face all the time! Students of CS don't ignore evil - Mary Baker Eddy founded the Christian Science Monitor to help alert us to world issues that need our prayers! Evil is of course just as real as darkness and cold. Is cold real? Actually no, it's simply the absence of heat, though it certainly FEELS very real!

Is darkness real? Is it something with a cause, with substance? No, it is simply the absence of light. Yet, darkness can make us feel afraid, it can cause us to have an accident when we can't see where we are going. Darkness has no source, no substance, nowhere to go. Darkness may suggest it has power - to terrify us or make us bump into things, but it's not the darkness that makes us do those things and once we know what is there, darkness has no power to make us un-know. Darkness is not power. It is simply the absence of light. Even if a cave has been dark for a million years, one beam of light will dispel the darkness.

On the other hand, light has a source. So light is power - it enables us to see - to understand - to know reality.

In the same way, evil has no power. It's simply that we haven't yet seen the power, the reality of good. God is omnipotent – all power. How can God, good, know the denial, the absence of what HeShe is?

Mary Baker Eddy wrote: When I have most clearly seen and most sensibly felt that the infinite recognizes no disease, (or evil) this has not separated me from God, but has so bound me to Him as to enable me instantaneously to heal a cancer which had eaten its way to the jugular vein.

In the same spiritual condition I have been able to replace dislocated joints and raise the dying to instantaneous health. People are now living who can bear witness to these cures. …..

…..An incontestable point in divine Science is, that because God is All, a realization of this fact dispels even the sense or consciousness of sin, and brings us nearer to God, bringing out the highest phenomena of the All-Mind. (Unity of Good p 7)

Hope that helps a bit!

JudyRae

[JudyRae]

Hello again Nancy – I had some more ideas that I feel may help explain this “How can God possibly not know evil?” conundrum.

Imagine being able to stand in the middle of the sun. What would you see? Light everywhere! Could you possibly see darkness? Light can never be overcome by (or even see) darkness, because light destroys darkness.

A wonderful woman whom I have known since childhood once told me in detail about the experience that propelled her into the public practice of Christian Science. (I’ll try to keep it brief!)

She was asked by a murderer in prison to visit him. He told her he’d been diagnosed too late with an incurable disease with debilitating side-effects. He asked her to pray for him and wouldn’t be fobbed off with the offer to contact a practitioner. Well, she went home and wept for days. She felt overwhelmed and protested again and again, “How can I pray for a murderer? He has killed someone, he deserves to be punished. He deserves to die.”

Suddenly, she heard a voice say out loud, “This is my beloved son in whom I am well pleased.” (Words that, as I’m sure you know, were spoken about Jesus at his baptism and transfiguration) Well, my friend was awed by this experience and in abject humility she realised that God saw this beloved son of His as perfect, innocent and pure, so who was she to judge him otherwise?

She was about to have Christian Science Class Instruction and so applied everything she was learning to the prisoner, identifying him spiritually, instead of as a mortal sinner. When she returned, not only was he completely healed of the disease and all its side-effects, but more importantly, he was a transformed man. From being one of the most violent and disruptive prisoners in that jail, he became a peace-maker, started church services and was released early for good behaviour, a changed man.

There is a very important statement in Science and Health which, when the truth behind it is understood, has led to some substantial healings and reformed lives (as was illustrated above!)

When speaking of God's children, not the children of men, Jesus said, "The kingdom of God is within you;" that is, Truth and Love reign in the real man, showing that man in God's image is unfallen and eternal. Jesus beheld in Science the perfect man, who appeared to him where sinning mortal man appears to mortals. In this perfect man the Saviour saw God's own likeness, and this correct view of man healed the sick. Thus Jesus taught that the kingdom of God is intact, universal, and that man is pure and holy. (S&H p 476)

JudyRae

[NancyJ]

All the posts have been so helpful, thank you!!

It leads me to ask for help in how to pray.

I actually get a little mentally tired when I see a person or situation who needs prayer, and I exercise visualizing good taking the place of evil. Although it is a good thing to start seeing God's image in everything, mentally it makes me tired at times. If that makes sense!

My prayers would be instead: 'please help them, God' etc...and continue to keep them in prayer each day.

I've read S&H about prayer, but I still get nervous (if that's the correct term!) that I'm not praying enough, by visualizing the goodness, or saying the 'Our Father' and leaving it at that.

I sometimes think if something goes wrong for the person, and I haven't done my usual amount of prayers for them, etc...that I've neglected the person or situation in some way.

That is where I'm confused the most about CS. I would like to get to the point where I don't feel that guilt or responsibility. I want to pray for others,
but fear sets in that if I don't do a certain amount, or types of prayer, etc...something might happen (in a bad way) to them.

[Lulu333]

Hi Nancy,

Our job isn't to make good happen; it's to see the good that's already there. I think prayer helps us do that, it helps us see what God is already doing, but it doesn't get God to do something. We don't govern God, He governs us!

[JudyRae]

Dear Nancy,

How wonderful that you want to help others! This desire will be blessed. I’m now going to say in many words what Lulu has just said in a few.

Christian Science isn’t a struggle. The moon doesn’t have to struggle to shine, but simply reflects the light of the sun! Mary Baker Eddy gives us this beautiful explanation:

The manifestation of God through mortals is as light passing through the window-pane. The light and the glass never mingle, but as matter, the glass is less opaque than the walls. The mortal mind through which Truth appears most vividly is that one which has lost much materiality--much error--in order to become a better transparency for Truth. (Science and Health p 295)

I just loved what Adyer said in the Christian Science and meditation forum and have just found it:

I'm reminded of the description of being a CS practitioner.

First you decide you're going to work for God.

Then you decide you're going to work with God.

When that has failed, you realize your job is to watch God work.

We’re not trying to get God to change sick matter into well matter, or influence a bad situation, but to see God’s perfection, goodness, love, power and presence, right where the discord seems to be.

I once dislocated a toe during a voyage on a ship. My mother and I prayed and prayed and nothing happened, so after 24 hours, she felt we should go to the doctor’s office. Outside the door were some deckchairs and I just said to my mother that I wanted to get close to God before we went in.

I had a 1948 pamphlet with me called “Treat Yourself Daily”. It begins with these words: “God has endowed each of us with the ability to express His divine power in our daily life. But in order to do this, one must maintain a sense of man’s conscious union with God, eternal Mind. When one realizes God’s ever-presence – that He is closer than the atmosphere or the sunlight – he begins to demonstrate his spiritual unity with the Father….”

The sun was beating down on me and the breeze playing with my hair, yet that article told me that God is “closer than the atmosphere or the sunlight”. I just sat back in the deckchair and let the wonder of that truth fill my thought. Feeling the sun, feeling the wind, but knowing God was closer, that in fact, we were one! I was filled with that “peace of God that passeth all understanding.” (Phil 4) There was a click and my toe moved back into place and immediately all swelling, pain and discolouration were gone. All the time I was trying to fix a damaged toe, it didn’t work. When I forgot about the toe and “Let this (M)ind be in (me), which was also in Christ Jesus” (Phil 2) yielding to Her loving presence, the harmony that was always there was seen and felt.

Studying Christian Science is a bit like learning a foreign language. At the beginning you wonder how you will ever grasp it, but, as you study and practice, it becomes easier and one day, it becomes so natural that you find yourself thinking in that language. Well Nancy, you are now a student of the language of Spirit! Relax and enjoy!

JudyRae